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Stirring the pot


dhoadley

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Things seem a little slow, so... O.o

I thought I'd bring up the topic of fuel additive. 666 When I first joined up, I heard a lot of guys talking about "SeaFoam".  I tried it and seem to have had good luck with it ever since. Another forum I belong on (Classic Goldwings, Hick sm03) they talk a lot about using ATF in much the same way and at much the same ratio as how I use SeaFoam. Many decades ago, in the back woods of Maine, I watched a good 'ole boy pour ATF down throat of an old Ford pickup carb and fog out the woods. I thought it was crazy at the time, but now this use of ATF as a fuel additive has raised a good question. Would this be an economical way to accomplish the same thing I'm trying to achieve with the much more expensive commercial additives? Your opinions are, as always, greatly appreciated. Thanx, Dave

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I store everything inside, so when I'm done for the season, I run 'em dry. Since I'm using something year round, my 5 gallon can never gets too old. For me, its cleaning running vs. storage. Additives seem to at least imply they do it all.

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ATF has a high level of detergent in it due to the environment it is intended to operate in, an automatic transmission. It can be used as a fuel system / fuel injector cleaner.

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Seafoam works for a cleaner. Chemtool brand B12 works just as well IMO as a cleaner and is cheaper.

Truck drivers and farmers have been adding ATF to fuel for years.

What your "good ole boy" did, did nothing for the fuel system, since he bypassed most of it. What he very likely was doing was cleaning the combustion chamber and valves of carbon build up.... or just getting rid of bugs ;)

I was shown by another "good ole boy" to clean carbon build up with a mixture of dish soap and water. It actually "steam cleans" the inside. I have tried it and it works, but you do need to be careful. LOL Removing and cleaning all the plugs on a V8 because you flooded it with water is no fun...

One of these days, maybe I will do a video of the process on a small engine.

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Seaform for me.

I have a friend who works in the marine industry and he see tons of fuel left in tanks for long periods of time. He swears to NEVER use stabil in fuel. The dealership he works at tells everyone to NOT use Stabil in their fuel. That is just what he has told me and not necessarily my opinion on Stabil. ...I am a HUGE Seafoam fan and Don't use Stabil at all.

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I have one motor that is very sensitive to water in the gas.  I can use the same contain of gas on multiple engines and they all run fine except for the trouble maker.  I started using Seafoam and no longer have any issues.  While I don't believe all the reviews and what is claimed, Seafoam works for me.  I use it in both my small engines and car.  I guess you could say I am a believer.

I have heard of people pouring ATF in the gas tank as well as down the carb to clean the engine.  And yes even water, I have not heard about using water and soap.

Rick..........

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I used to use Stabilt till they changed the labeling to read storage. I have changed to startron. I buy my gas in 5 gallon can and use it year around in my garden tractors, big ACs and my mower they start up without any problem after setting all winter. Have used staibilt in engines that set with untreated gas and would not start, dumped old gas out filled with treated gas tried to start got it threw carb go and left set over night. Next day they started without any problem.

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Several years ago my local Simplicity dealer had a supplier drop off some seafoam for him to try. He had a customer bring in a tractor that would barely run. He decided to dump a can in the tank and after a short time he said it sounded like someone was slowly adjusting the carb. Made a believer out of him and me, I use it all the time to clean. I also add it to my gas can every time I fill it and don't have any issues with gas going bad. That's my experience.  

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My 2 cents here, sorry if I sound a bit sarcastic and political at times, but this is such an old topic with so much mis-information that just keeps getting recirculated.

I am not against SeaFoam, but SeaFoam contains alcohol.  Sniff it, read the package.  Just saying that if you are concerned with alcohol, then don't use SeaFoam for storage.  I have used it for engines that had been in storage and were started back up but had a little surge due to a carb that was a little dirty from old fuel.  Sometimes they clean up with the SeaFoam and run OK without having to tear down a carb.  Now, it isn't a miracle cure that will fix an engine that won't start or barely runs.  It also won't clean out actual debris - rust, rubber from deteriorated fuel lines, dirt etc.  It will possibly clean out gum or varnish though.

 

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 7:50 AM, jimmystractor said:

I also use and love Seafoam. I also only use premium fuel in all of my small engine stuff to stay away from ethanol.

As for the comment above about running "Pemium" fuel to stay away from ethanol - SORRY - that is NOT TRUE!  Premium does not mean no ethanol.  Now, your local station may carry ethanol free Premium, but by definition Premium does not have to be ethanol free.  In fact, making sure it has the legal 10% of ethanol in it (and now 15% is going to be a reality) is the cheapest way to get the "Premium" octane rating up to the typical 92 or 93.  Ethanol has an octane rating typically over 100, so blending it with gas is an easy and cheap (thanks to the ethanol subsidies) way to get "Premium" gas.  This isn't my opinion, this is fuel facts and is easy to find the supporting documentation.  People forget that 10% ethanol has been legal since 1980 I believe.  It's just that until the last decade or so, you didn't always find it blended right to that legal limit.  It can also vary by region and season.  This 15% limit that is becoming legal is a nightmare.  There is a website http://www.pure-gas.org/ to find stations that carry 100% gas.  Often times marinas carry ethanol free fuel.  Many times it is only available as 92 or 93 octane - which won't hurt your engine, but isn't necessary.

Also, the premium gas will not make your engine run cooler or last longer. Again, fuel facts, not my opinion.  I know, everyone has an uncle or dad that ran Av gas and put 32,000 hours on a Briggs and never even had to change the oil..........   As a side note, the typical flat head Briggs is meant to run on fuel down to about 77 octane, so running "regular" 87 octane is just fine.  Unless your engine has been modified with cam, compression and timing changes, or has some sort of extreme carbon build up or very poor tune, then 87 octane is all it needs.

 

For storage, running the engine until it quits is not getting all of the fuel out of the carb float bowl.  You just left a puddle of fuel in the bowl that will evaporate and leave residue behind.  Residue that will gunk things up.  There is no one sure way to store an engine and not risk varnishing.  It depends on where it is stored.  The worst is typically a snowblower left in a small yard shed all summer.  Think how hot those typically get inside.  That heat just evaporates the fuel right out of the carb and leaves a nice layer of residue.

Keeping a fuel tank full minimizes how much air (and ultimately condensation/humidity) gets in and stays in your fuel tank.  Keeping a schedule to occasionally run the machine is important.  That way fuel is kept moving through the carb and can minimize evaporation and residue forming.

 

OK, rant over.  Tim

Edited by TimJr
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I should have used the words, ethanol free premium. There are only a couple of stations near me that have 10% ethanol in their premium. Thank the good Lord.

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I have used any and all options. I tend to stick to sea foam because I have had the best luck with it but I know it doesn't fix all issues.

I am not trying to upset any one here but, the topic is called stirring the pot...

In regards to ethanol, I always have to laugh. I have built and worked on E85 engines. They run like a champ. Around us in the heart of corn country good luck finding zero ethanol fuel and if you do you pay at least another 30 cents for it. The racing community has many guys running E85 over aviation or race fuel. It is cheap and if an engine is built for it you can get on average more power out of it. You want more power put bigger jets in it. The ethanol when ignited adds more oxygen to the mix. Which is the sneaky way to get around carb size limiting issues. Henry Ford himself wanted alcohol as a fuel but thanks to Rockefeller we have gas which was a by product of making products he was already producing and selling so why not sell it as well. As in all things you need to change the a few things on your engine to make it run better. The reason flex fuel vehicles get crappy mileage on ethanol is they are tuned to the lowest common denominator of fuel which is the gas. In order to get better mileage out of ethanol fuels you need more compression a different cam and timing just to name a few things. With the new engine they can adjust timing easily enough but they have a hard time changing compression or the cam on the fly. Ethanol does tend to latch on to water making the fuel harder to store, but the pay offs can be great. Like more horsepower for less fuel usage. I laugh at the guys I know racing complaining about burning 60-100 bucks of fuel in a night when if they would go outside the box and run ethanol they could have more power and economy and spend a fraction of the price on fuel. Not to mention they can cut down on the size of their cooling system with a smaller radiator and fan to save even more power by minimizing parasitic loss.

I myself have a '60 401 Buick Nailhead that is destined to become a e85 only vehicle. Many have asked, Why? My biggest reason is because people told me I can't do it. I do many things like that at work so why not add to the reputation of being willing to think outside the box and try new things rather than pushing the same old things that everyone has been doing. Why not set yourself apart.  The other is the ethanol is a fuel we can make and keep making without relying on crude oil. The other reason is I want the power I can get out of it running ethanol. Along with the cooling benefits. And by the time I add to the fuel savings I can afford to drive the hot rodded pickup it is destined for more than running premium, race gas or nav gas.

 

 

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Here is a chart that shows the heat content of various fuels.

So with so much less BTUs in alcohol, is the reason that E85 has such poor mileage, less energy per gallon.

But alcohol can be a very powerful fuel, because it already has a bunch of oxygen in it. it requires much less air.

Gas needs a ratio of 14:1 air to fuel, alcohol is 6:1.

It is very hard to stuff more air into an engine, but much easier to push more fuel into it, So for a given carb size or even intake valve size you can generate more power with alcohol vs. gas but you use over twice as much fuel.

NOTE:  I see an error in the chart E85 and E10 BTU content should be reversed.

 

IMG_0363.JPG

Edited by MikeES
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Love this post.

I've used Seafoam to "clean" marginally fouled carbs.  It has always helped, but doesn't always "fix" the problem if the carb is too fouled.

I also use Stabil every season for my tractors that will "sleep" until spring.  I keep the tanks completely full also.  I've never had an issue with carb fouling when following this procedure.  It may be overkill, but IMO it's cheap insurance.

As to engine "power" on various fuels, I agree with Benjamin, if an engine is built to run on a specific fuel, it can make a lot of power - think Indy car engines running on pure alcohol. 

BUT Mike is dead on about mileage, it's all about the about of "energy" in a given quantity of  fuel.  It takes energy to move a vehicle from point A to point B; if the vehicle is driven in the same manner, it will use less of a higher energy fuel. 

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On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 4:59 PM, bkassulke said:

I have used any and all options. I tend to stick to sea foam because I have had the best luck with it but I know it doesn't fix all issues.

I am not trying to upset any one here but, the topic is called stirring the pot...

In regards to ethanol, I always have to laugh. I have built and worked on E85 engines. They run like a champ. Around us in the heart of corn country good luck finding zero ethanol fuel and if you do you pay at least another 30 cents for it. The racing community has many guys running E85 over aviation or race fuel. It is cheap and if an engine is built for it you can get on average more power out of it. You want more power put bigger jets in it. The ethanol when ignited adds more oxygen to the mix. Which is the sneaky way to get around carb size limiting issues. Henry Ford himself wanted alcohol as a fuel but thanks to Rockefeller we have gas which was a by product of making products he was already producing and selling so why not sell it as well. As in all things you need to change the a few things on your engine to make it run better. The reason flex fuel vehicles get crappy mileage on ethanol is they are tuned to the lowest common denominator of fuel which is the gas. In order to get better mileage out of ethanol fuels you need more compression a different cam and timing just to name a few things. With the new engine they can adjust timing easily enough but they have a hard time changing compression or the cam on the fly. Ethanol does tend to latch on to water making the fuel harder to store, but the pay offs can be great. Like more horsepower for less fuel usage. I laugh at the guys I know racing complaining about burning 60-100 bucks of fuel in a night when if they would go outside the box and run ethanol they could have more power and economy and spend a fraction of the price on fuel. Not to mention they can cut down on the size of their cooling system with a smaller radiator and fan to save even more power by minimizing parasitic loss.

I myself have a '60 401 Buick Nailhead that is destined to become a e85 only vehicle. Many have asked, Why? My biggest reason is because people told me I can't do it. I do many things like that at work so why not add to the reputation of being willing to think outside the box and try new things rather than pushing the same old things that everyone has been doing. Why not set yourself apart.  The other is the ethanol is a fuel we can make and keep making without relying on crude oil. The other reason is I want the power I can get out of it running ethanol. Along with the cooling benefits. And by the time I add to the fuel savings I can afford to drive the hot rodded pickup it is destined for more than running premium, race gas or nav gas.

I agree with some of the above. 

However, you contradict yourself.  Bigger jet means more fuel going through the carb.  How can you get better mileage when you increase jet size?  Plus, the bigger jetting when using ethanol/E85 isn't simply to "make more power".  It is to tune the engine to run based on the required air/fuel ratio.   BY LAW OF NATURE with ethanol you have to burn more fuel to do the same work as also shown above in another post. Your cooling benefits are related to the increased amount of fuel being put into the engine and how it actually is able to carry some of the heat.   I completely agree that for racing, ethanol/E85 can make big power and has benefits. As an everyday fuel - no way.  Ethanol in concentrations of 10% or more in old engines - no way.  The rubber and many metals are not capable of resisting the corrosion and damage that ethanol chemically inflicts. 

 

Flex fuel vehicles do change timing and cam.  Obviously compression is not changed.  I will not put E85 into my truck.  If you have access to E85, and can always run it in a vehicle that is driven regularly, probably OK.  To run it occasionally, or in a vehicle that sits or does not drive a lot, not a good idea.  JMHO, Tim

 

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BTU's is only part of the equation of mileage... being able to extract the btu's is another huge part of the equation. Gas as a fuel is volatile in the combustion process obviously(which is part of the reason a gas engine has an advance in the distributor). However natural gas, propane, and ethanol related. High compression is a way to extract the stored energy in an engine. That is why diesel engine are able to produce as much power in a much more efficient manner than a gas engine at the same power level. If BTU was the only way to get fuel efficiency, there would be a lot more irrigation engines around here running gas instead of natural gas or propane. By the btu argument they have much less energy available, but there is no way to make a gas engine efficient enough to run 24/7 for days on end in the field. I have not seen a way yet to extract the full amount of energy in gas. Natural gas and propane engine built with the right compression, timing, and tuning can run more efficient and run better and cleaner than a gas engine because they can extract more of the stored energy in the form of btu's in an engine.

The reason you run bigger jets with ethanol is to in a situation where you are limited on carb size you can get more oxygen into the combustion because the fuel itself contains massive amounts of oxygen that is released when it is in a combustion setting. What I was saying about changing the cam is that there are certain durations and or overlaps that work much better on ethanol based fuel. As far as efficiency on the ethanol, I have worked on an ethanol engine that was in an old cube chevy cargo van. It was a service/work vehicle. It being not very aerodynamic was still able to run 30 plus mpg down the interstate at 80 plus mpg. The reason being the engine was built for it. By the way this was an engine sized at a measly 305 ci. It lacked nothing in regards to power. If ran about 40 percent intestate and 60 percent town driving it only dropped to 25-28 mpg. Why because it was designed specifically for e85.  You can extract more of the btu's worth of energy in ethanol, natural gas and propane than gas.

The cooling benefits are from the vaporization of the ethanol. It reacts the same as propane where it cools as it enters the combustion chamber. It doesn't matter on putting more fuel in than gas. The fuel to air ratio problem everyone quotes is based on the fact most people try to tune an ethanol engine like a straight gas engine. There are nuances that need to be followed. Also the cooling effect has a lot to do with the efficiency as well. Gas in an inefficient fuel as a whole because of the excess heat created in an engine. And it is cost inefficient to capture the lost energy due to heat. 

Metal as a whole is not effected as much by the ethanol. Rubber yes, that is why since the late seventies mainly the early eighties when they started using ethanol more manufacturers changed to a different rubber composition. All carbs kits and such you get present day have a resistance to ethanol.

I would btw love to see am indy car built for gas instead of alcohol/ethanol based engines. One thing i guarantee you would see is more pits stops. Why because you cannot extract the full amount of btu's on any fuel. However there are some that are much more easily extracted on a better ratio. Such as alcohol/ethanol, methanol, propane and natural gas, diesel.

Any way no one has to believe me but I am just trying to let people know some of the things I have run into working on engines and through research  and real world experience while not listening to people with vested interests involved in the fuel industry.

 

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I don't mean to be difficult.  But I have to say, if you could get an old technology cube van to get 30+ mpg @ 80 mph then the politics or the evil oil corporations must have squashed the possibilities. That would be about a three fold increase or more, from what an old cube van could hope to get.  All of the chemestry and science re: BTU's and all is not my forte', so I admit I can't speak from an educational standpoint.  But if there was the possibility to get that kind of mileage out of an old cube van simply with timing and compression, then with all of the available technology today they should be able to get even much more.  I humbly and without anything more than my opinion, don't believe it. 

Edited by Brettw
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Wow, the real reason you have different size jets is to tune the engine for the proper air:fuel ratio so that it runs and makes good power along with efficiency.  Yes, it depends on factors such as the type of fuel used, the intended use of the engine, the cam, compression, RPM range etc.  However, the basics are that alcohol engines run in a range of 6:1 to about 8:1 - depending on all of the previous factors.  Alcohol can be more forgiving than gasoline on being off on the mixture.  Gasoline engines have a much narrower band of air:fuel ratio - typically 13.7:1 to about 14.7:1.   Again, that depends on the above listed factors. Real world gas A:F is usually around 14.2:1 for many engines.

I do not know where an E85 engine falls for the happy A:F range.

So, what I just demonstrated is that the alcohol engine requires about twice as much fuel to air in order to burn efficiently compared to gasoline.  Yes, alcohol can make awesome power - I will never argue that.  I argue the mileage and maintenance.  Alcohol will mess up many metals - take a look in an old Briggs carb that has been sitting with the nasty ethanol snot in it and see how corroded it is due to the chemical reactions. 

Lastly, I am sorry to do this, but your claims on the van mileage are just too fantastic for me to believe at all.  Now, if you explain that you had a some sort of 6 speed trans with a 2 speed rear axle to get some really awesome final drive ratios to really squeak out the mpg's, then OK.

Or, if you have some explanation along the lines of the Smoky Yunick hot air engine, then OK.

You don't want to hear about anyone supposedly supporting big oil, but it sure sounds like you have 80 acres of corn or switchgrass that is heading to the local ethanol plant.

Do you know that currently the EPA requires small engines to be emissions certified while running on 100% gasoline?  So, basically you are misfueling your engine the first time you put in what most people can buy for gasoline out of a pump.  There is no ethanol free pump within 15 miles of where I live, that I know of.  It also means that the air:fuel ratio is not optimized for the fuel that most of us can buy.  The engines are run pretty lean as it is to meet emissions.  Then they sell us fuel that requires a slightly richer mix due to the ethanol in it.  With our fixed jet carbs, it can't be adjusted.  Now, if the EPA would certify at E10, life would be a bit easier since the engine would be tuned to run on what the vast majority of people are going to be running.

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The go-cart racers running alcohol run a very tight piston and tempered rings to create less drag on those little engines.  At the end of the night they quickly run the engine on some gas, to get some lube into the engine.  If they shut the engine down directly from alcohol by the next morning the engine is stuck and can be ruined.

I remember years ago the alcohol pulling tractors had a hard time getting going at late evening pulls because of the cold and dense air (same for drag racing), those guys have now figured it out (fuel injection with computer management control), but alcohol can still be a fussy fuel...I see them packing ice in the box for the daytime pull, and warm water in the box at night.

Fun topic lots of info...didn't it start out about fuel additives?  sm00

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