Was I taken ?

[fishnwiz]

Well

I have purchased 100s of different tractors over the years and have been very lucky to have not been burned.

This is my current issue. I purchased a super nice condition 7119 with the original series one 19 hp Kohler engine.  When I looked over tractor I did a cold start on the tractor and it fired right up with no smoke whatsoever. I test cut for about 3 mins with the tractor and put it through its paces with no issues...great hydro...smooth running engine...great deck and bearings..good BGB.. After dealing a bit on what is my 1st 19hp Simplicity, I purchased the 7119 and a running cutting but somewhat worn 5112.5 for 700 dollars.  ( Most tractors I buy are less then 1/2 that price)

After getting both tractors home, I started cutting with the 7119....things were great for about the 1st 10 min with tractor running very good. I start to notice the smell of oil but do NOT see any smoke coming from the exhaust....I  then notice a few  whisps of smoke coming from under the hood. I stop the tractor and open the hood to try to determine where the smoke is coming from and notice it is coming from the air cleaner. I pulled the top and notice smoke puffing out of the breather tube. I started the tractor and returned it to my garage and  did see a little oil on the top side of the engine but not any in the air cleaner itself.  

My feeling is I may have  bad rings or maybe head gasket or jug gasket leak as well....or ?  

My question is this....Do I  spend who knows how much to rebuild the whole engine  or replace with a Honda or ? repower when I really was not planning on using this as my cutting tractor or do I  just sell this As is  and let someone else redo the motor to their liking.?   Tractor does run very good but if I stick another 5-7 hundred into it I will be upside down IMO

I still hope to NOT lose money on this tractor but at what point is it NOT worth fixing  if I am not planning on keeping it anyways?  Not even sure what these bring in my area but thought I bought it right before the issues appeared.  Not sure how deep a hole I have dug on this one?  

WHAT WOULD YOU GUYS DO??  Any and all input will be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 2, 2017 by fishnwiz

[maxwood]

Hello, Is it possible it could be a worn out breather  , should be easy to check.

Thanks Ken in Mi

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KOH-52-035-02-S-KOHLER-BREATHER-5203502S-5209622-KT17-M18-M20-MV16-MV-MV20-/191374056599?hash=item2c8ec85c97:m:mxXBdXM20Ip6hYPyphM4aYw

[fishnwiz]

I thought that might be the case also..will need to do alot more investigation before I pull the motor.

I  am open to suggestions on what other causes I can check.

Thanks Ken

 

[fishnwiz]

Just to be clear...Nothing has been determined on my part with regards to what avenue I am going to pursue and I am just looking at "what if" situations as well as other ideas on cause / repairs.

[ShaunE]

You can check the breather but with all the focus on the breathers that I have read, I'm not sold that that is the problem.  Yes there is a newer reed style which replaces the umbrella type but if the umbrella is still intact, then the breather is fine & you have another problem.  I would start with a warm compression test & change the oil to get rid of the STP or Lucas Oil Treatment Snot Ball someone may have put in before they sold it to you.  If you were buying it to keep & not flip, I'd spend the money & rebuild.  

I have three Sovereign platform tractors.  One KT17, One Command & One Triad that I took care of all the Achilles tendons before It ever mowed.  In order of MY personal liking, the KT is #1, Triad #2 & the Command is dead last.  JMO.

 

[isetta]

Nice looking fleet Shaun.  Wiz you might also confirm it has the right dip stick and the correct amount of oil.  I overfilled my CCKB and had a similar smoke under the hood moment.  I run 20-50 in that thing and in the fall with too much oil it was filling the breather with thick oil and not letting the motor breathe

Edited June 2, 2017 by isetta

[fishnwiz]

Great suggestions all around. This is exactly what I hoped I would get when I posted my situation. 

Thanks. 

AWESOME FLEET Shaun.

[720nut]

Mark I'm with Shaun in fact if your going to keep

 

[fishnwiz]

Thanks again guys.

I hate that I missed this issue on a high dollar buy. I am normally  pretty cautious and did do some homework on this model engine beforehand. 

 

 

[fishnwiz]

Breather looks fine...newer reed type in tractor. Not much that can wrong on this type from what I can tell?

[MikeES]

I have re-ringed an M20 and a KT17, I have another one to do.  I have found that with these engines, that the bearings are good and they just need new rings to eliminate the blow-by, mine have had very little cylinder wear and were in spec for just new rings, not even any ring ridge.  A new gasket set with seals and new std rings is less than $120 on e-bay.  Many will suggest to replace the governor gear while it is apart, but that will require you to split the case/block, which you don't have to do to just put in new rings and hone the cylinders.

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by MikeES

[fishnwiz]

Thanks Mike for the excellent information. 

[SmilinSam]

From a money standpoint, I personally would wait for the next junk tractor to come along cheap with  a good donor engine in it. Any engine 16hp or bigger. Repower and re-sell.

If its a good looking tractor with a good deck, it still fits in the $700-$900 window for a good running riding lawn mower. Anything $1k or over gets real hard to get rid of usually.

If you are set on having a 7119, then I guess you know the answer.

Keep in mind most of the 19's have already been repowered that I have seen

Edited June 3, 2017 by SmilinSam

[Brettw]

Quote

I have re-ringed an M20 and a KT17, I have another one to do.  I have found that with these engines, that the bearings are good and they just need new rings to eliminate the blow-by, mine have had very little cylinder wear and were in spec for just new rings, not even any ring ridge.  A new gasket set with seals and new std rings is less than $120 on e-bay.  Many will suggest to replace the governor gear while it is apart, but that will require you to split the case/block, which you don't have to do to just put in new rings and hone the cylinders.

Agreed.  And keep in mind, other than the diesel, the 7119 is most powerful Sovereign / large frame ever out the door at the factory. 

[fishnwiz]

16 hours ago, MikeES said:

I have re-ringed an M20 and a KT17, I have another one to do.  I have found that with these engines, that the bearings are good and they just need new rings to eliminate the blow-by, mine have had very little cylinder wear and were in spec for just new rings, not even any ring ridge.  A new gasket set with seals and new std rings is less than $120 on e-bay.  Many will suggest to replace the governor gear while it is apart, but that will require you to split the case/block, which you don't have to do to just put in new rings and hone the cylinders.

 

Did you go up in size on the rings or just replaced with standard rings?

[fishnwiz]

3 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

From a money standpoint, I personally would wait for the next junk tractor to come along cheap with  a good donor engine in it. Any engine 16hp or bigger. Repower and re-sell.

If its a good looking tractor with a good deck, it still fits in the $700-$900 window for a good running riding lawn mower. Anything $1k or over gets real hard to get rid of usually.

If you are set on having a 7119, then I guess you know the answer.

Keep in mind most of the 19's have already been repowered that I have seen

I did add a little  Seafoam to the engine oil and ran it for about 15 min...I have found more then one leaking gasket so I am planning on pulling the engine...MAYBE. Still not sure. Darn motor runs excellent otherwise.

[Brettw]

Standard rings.  That assumes that's what's currently in there.  I have not had to bore any of the KT's I have worked on, just a hone.  That's not to say somebody hasn't bored this engine in the last 30+ years.  It will have STD stamped on the top of the piston if standard bore.  I think it's harder to find the .10 -.20 rings.

[fishnwiz]

Thanks again Brett for all your information both here and through emails. You have been a giant help!

Edited June 4, 2017 by fishnwiz

[Chris727]

My KT17 in the DA 917 was getting a lot of oil in the breather and leaking a fair bit of oil. It runs and sounds great. It had the umbrella breather and it was bad. I installed the reed-type breather. No change. Turned out I was overfilling the oil, going by what was misprinted in a book. Compression is in the 90's per cylinder. I would still say it needs rings. I have added at most maybe an  1/8th qt  of oil in maybe 18-20 hrs of use. It was still above add but I brought it back up to full. I don't consider that bad enough to justify removing and rebuilding, at least not for something I'm keeping.

 

[a_sannine]

I would pull the side covers and expose the cylinders out , have a visual check of piston conditions ,valve conditions , bore scratches /scores .

If all look fine no major problems like piston worn on one side , valves no play , bore still standard  (STD on piston)

Grab the piston with ur thumb and rock it back and forth , if it moves , rings shot .

 I would re ring it , with a good hone job , new head gaskets and jug gaskets , a good valve job (lapping adjusting ) this engine will take u a long way .

If inspection doesn't look good I would treat that oil with Lucas and use it as is .

a total overhaul will cost u arm and leg , not worth it as it is still risky  just my $0.2

Edited June 4, 2017 by a_sannine

[a_sannine]

Forgot to mention , don't feel bad .

Not long ago , I drove 220 miles one way for a beautiful 916 , I checked it at buyers house , tractor in mint condition , I used it for like 10 minutes made the deal  drove back, got home drove it off the trailer , took it for a spin behind the house , first round ,second round I hear  kabooom , the starter went flying off the tractor , threw a rod , I was about to cry , it was a $800 deal .

I still have the engine in the back of the shed with a hole u can stick ur shoe  in .

[fishnwiz]

45 minutes ago, a_sannine said:

Forgot to mention , don't feel bad .

Not long ago , I drove 220 miles one way for a beautiful 916 , I checked it at buyers house , tractor in mint condition , I used it for like 10 minutes made the deal  drove back, got home drove it off the trailer , took it for a spin behind the house , first round ,second round I hear  kabooom , the starter went flying off the tractor , threw a rod , I was about to cry , it was a $800 deal .

I still have the engine in the back of the shed with a hole u can stick ur shoe  in .

Now your just trying to make me feel good about my deal ....WOW, very sorry to hear that story. Like I said before, I normally don't spend more then 300 or so on tractors to keep or flip. I am more mad at myself for not seeing indications of the oil issues before hand but it's  hard to deal when the guys phone never stopped ringing the whole time I was there and I was the 1st one to check it out so the pressure was on.  Love IS blind!  The tractor was too darn clean and the fact I never owned a 19hp Soverign messed with my good judgement!

[MikeES]

If the engine needs to be bored, then you may want to go down the repower track.  I not aware of any rings other std out there.   .020 over pistons with rings are available, but at $250 ea.

[fishnwiz]

Ouch...250 each would be a deal killer on this motor. I would be better off just to do new gaskets to fix the oil leaks and live with the breather smoke.

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by fishnwiz

[maxwood]

Hello, I don't  know if you have ever seen this web site?  He is an active advisor in other tractor sites. He is into tractor pulling and Small engine rebuilds, And hard to find parts  . Very friendly and helpful  . Check it out      Caution,,, lots to look at .

Make sure you scroll up and down to find the parts you need .

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/a1miller.htm#rebuildparts

 

Thanks Ken in MI

Edited June 4, 2017 by maxwood