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steve-wis

ignition module question

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steve-wis

When replacing an ignition module on a Kohler ch18, can you turn it around so the opposite face is facing out?  I have a new one, but the wire connections are placed so that I can't get it under the intake manifold if I try to have the spark plug wire on the same side as the old one.  It will fit if I turn it.  Can i do this?

 

Thanks for any help, hoping to get this thing back into the tractor later today.

 

Steve

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PhanDad

I can't answer your question directly, but based on the fact that the same part number is used for both sides and the coils are mounted "opposite hand" on both of my Commands, I would think you can mount them either way.  

A pic of my newer CH18 (build date January 2008, with part #24 584 45S modules):

IMG_4703.thumb.jpg.a2207dc4bfbdfd3d58cb3e629fd506f1.jpg

A pic of my "older" NOS CH20 (build date 2005/6 based on EPA CA regulation on a nameplate, with part #24 584 01S modules):

IMG_7705.thumb.JPG.b39c4da143de8e99b4b352ff3944a084.JPG

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ShaunE

I'm confused as to why it wouldn't fit the original way unless there is a dimensional difference.

As Bill said, These are the same part # & they are mounted "opposite hand" or "front to back".  So they should fire if the gap is set correctly.

Note the orientation of the white "kill" wire on each coil.  they are attached to the "single tab" side of the coils.  

My question is...Did the old coils work at all?  I can't remember from your original post whether or not you had weak spark or no spark.

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steve-wis

The original modules were 24 584 15-S part numbers, which are NLA, and replaced with 24 584 36-S modules.  They are slightly different in physical size, and the location of the kill tab in relation to the spark plug wire is different.  I am trying to keep the spark plug wire on the same side as it was with the original ones.  On the left bank I was able to do this because it places the kill tab on the outside face.  When I try to mount the right bank module with the spark plug wire on the same side as the original one it puts the kill tab under the intake manifold.  The original one was also up under there, but there was slightly more room and it just fit, but the new one doesn't fit.

With both of the original modules, i had good spark on right bank, weak on the left when cold and none on the left as it warmed up.  I replaced the left bank module first  and had good spark on left side, but right side went dead.  Instructions said I might have to change both if the ones on the engine were older ones, so I then changed the right side one so they are now a matched set, but with the right side one on backwards from the original orientation, and I now have no spark on either bank.  The ground wire seems to be good without any shorts but I am going to recheck that.  I just don't know if turning that one module is what is causing both to be having no spark now.

According to jacks small engines, these modules are supposed to work on my engine.

Edited by steve-wis

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ShaunE

The modules I replaced on mine were 24 584 45-S.  The same physical size as what was removed.  From What I have read, the part # coils you have are for the engines above 20HP.  The difference in the service manual shows 1 11/16" vs. 2 1/16".

 

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PhanDad

I think Shaun means the replacement modules he used were part #24 584 45-S.  That is the current part # for Simplicity CH18 spec engine. 

Original part # was 24 584 01-S.

Sounds like Jack's got U the wrong part#.

Edited by PhanDad
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steve-wis

My service manual gives four numbers for modules, two are the 1 11/16 inch and two are the 2 1/16 inch modules.  My engine had the larger ones in it.  For the larger ones, the two numbers given in the manual are 24 584 15-s or 24 584 36-s.  The 15-s ones are no longer available so the 36-s ones were substituted.

My engine has the silver sticker on the shroud completely wiped clean- no numbers left to reference, so I am going by the manual I got with the tractor from the previous owner, which covers ch18-ch25 engines.

I am going to play more with it this week.  I will re-check the ground wire and see if by bending the ground wire spade I might get it on the other way and see if that works.

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steve-wis

Well, I pulled the shroud and unhooked the kill wires and still no spark.  Then I reversed the right bank module so it is on like the original was and still no spark with kill wires unhooked.  From the looks of the old modules they were in there a long time and I am assuming they are original, and they are the bigger, 2 1/16 inch size, but the tabs for the kill wires are placed different, which is what is giving me the interference.  I fould that if I twist the right bank kill wire tab and bend it, I can get it in with the wire attached, but it is pushed right up against the intake, which I don't like.  

Does anyone know of a phone number Kohler might have for a customer to contact with problems like this?

Steve

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PhanDad

Very puzzling problem.

Do you know if the engine was an original Simplicity OEM or a repower?  The Simplicity tractor mfg# should tell.  

Some ramdon far-out thoughts - Maybe the larger early part # modules were installed by mistake by PO.  Those work and new part # modules don't on a CH18.  

I'm thinking the repair manual would cover the full CH range of sizes so both part numbers would be mentioned in the manual.  I'm thinking if the flywheels are different on the smaller vs larger engines, the magnets might be in a different place, hence the need for a different size module.  New module has a tighter tolerance as to magnet position.  

Can't  help with a phone number for Kohler, but a call to OPE engines (a good online Kohler parts supplier - Phone #888-652-3990) might help.

Edited by PhanDad
Added Phone #

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ShaunE

CPD - Central Power Distributors - (262)250-1977.  That's the closest I can get you to Kohler.

I know the tag is wiped clean as mine is as well.  But if I hold my blower housing in just the right angle of sunlight, the numbers are all visible as they are lightly stamped into the tag. 

This is a strange problem & these coils aren't cheap to be just buying & swapping.  I understand your frustration as we have all been there a time or two.  But mind you almost all places will want the Model & Spec # so if there is a way to get it read off the blower housing tag, it will behoove you to do this.

38 minutes ago, PhanDad said:

Some ramdon far-out thoughts - Maybe the larger early part # modules were installed by mistake by PO.  Those work and new part # modules don't on a CH18.

This could have indeed happened.  Maybe not by the PO directly, but anyone who has performed service or repair  on it in the past.

 

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steve-wis

It did run with the old modules when it was cold, but lost one bank when it got hot.  Thinking it should run with the ones I have.  Will let you know when I check further, I am taking a day off of working on it to rethink things.

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steve-wis

Here are pics of the old modules.  They have the number 9425 in them.  Also pics of the manual I have and the new modules on the engine.  Notice where the kill wire tab is on the right side one, up under the intake.  Tight fit but got it in there after bending the tab and twisting it some.

Does that number 9425 tell anyone anything?  It would help if that would identify the old modules, it is not a part number.

 

Steve

 

IMG_0108.JPG

IMG_0109.JPG

IMG_0110.JPG

IMG_0111.JPG

IMG_0112.JPG

IMG_0113.JPG

IMG_0114.JPG

IMG_0115.JPG

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PhanDad

Being curious  and retired, I did some digging.

First in the Repair Manual and I found the same table as you show above, but the row/column info is reversed:

59ca8d307eba0_CH18SServManualPg8_10.thumb.JPG.92fc4c251907f274c505a2c908a90ed4.JPG

I noticed the resistance differences between the listed modules, especially the 3 to 4 value for your new part number vs the old.  So I'm thinking the old/new resistance differences might be your problem.

Then I was curious to see if the 1-11/16" module part numbers listed in that table crossed to the new part number I listed above (24 584 45S) for the CH18.  I was very surprised to see this:

IgnModule2458436S.JPG.0cc98f7c17d1e536fbdf22f967c270b5.JPG

Both of the 1-11/16 modules listed in the service manual cross to your new module number (24 584 36S), NOT 24 584 45S!

Then I noticed what I think is the problem : "Used on Command engines with SAM (speed advance module)". 

I don't believe the CH18 engine had that option.  (Does yours?  If so, maybe it was added?)

And for reference, here's the screen shot of the part #s I referred to above:

IgnModule2458445S.JPG.31465e706f4d1c2bb260018047413d2e.JPG 

Which shows the module is for a CDI Fixed ignition.

So I'm still thinking you got the wrong part.

 

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steve-wis

I do not have a sam module.  I am thinking you are right and I have the wrong modules.  Still wonder why when I had only changed the first one, it did have spark but the other old one did not.  I hate to think I have $95 worth of useless new modules, but it may be the case.  I am going to try to do a bit more checking before I do anything else.  thanks for the info, i do appreciate it!

 

Steve

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dhoadley

When I get new/wrong parts, I throw them back up on Ebay at a discount, making it a much smaller loss to me. Just a thought, Dave

Edited by dhoadley

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steve-wis

Update:  Got the right modules and the thing is running.  Thanks to all for the hand-holding thru this mess.  I think I have found my new winter snowblowing machine! 

Thanks again!

Steve

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