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MadMike

Starter Solenoid

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MadMike

After having reoccurring issues with the KT 19 S2 in my 7119H, I decided to go new and purchased an 18 HP Vanguard thru Small Engine Warehouse.  This engine is sold as a direct drop in for the KT19, so an identical 2 contact plug in.  Well, I have the engine installed and cannot get it to turn over.  I have 12.7 volts at the positive in side of the solenoid, but no voltage of the starter side.  I assumed maybe, although brand new, it was just a bad solenoid.  I did jumper it and the engine turned over.

At this point, I noticed that the solenoid has a small spade connector that appears to be unused. 

Wouldn't this be the trigger to fire the solenoid? (I did remove the solenoid - photo attached)

Also, because  I have a solenoid under the dash, are two actually needed?  Preferred?  Doesn't matter?

Thanks in advance for any help I can get.

And for the record, I hate electrical issues.

Mike

 

 

 

18 Vanguard Solenoid.JPG

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simplewrench

A kt 19 has a positive ignition and a vanguard has a negative ignition. Which means when you turn the key on on a kohler it sends power to the ignition but on a Briggs turning the key on opens the ground to the ignition which allows the spark to go to the plug and not the ground. I say this to say I am not sure the wiring will work with out changing a few things. 

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PhanDad

Here's the wiring diagram for a KT19 powered Simplicity tractor:

16GTHL_Wire7117_NoIM.jpg.7a1e3eca76db5c8eabbaac0c29dabcd1.jpg

It has the 2 wire connection at the engine as you stated in your post.  

As simplewrench stated, the KT is a battery ignition, I don't know what the Vanguard is (simplewrench stated it's a "negative" ignition, I don't know what that is).  IF the Vanguard is a magneto ignition ignition, you don't want to feed the ignition coils with 12v; if you do, you'll fry them.  

Maybe SEW has done some additional engine wiring such that you can just plug in the 2 wire connector and the ignition will be OK.  Or the supplied relay may be either a "battery ignition to magneto ignition" changing relay (think BLT relay that's he's posted about many times) or starter relay.  Hopefully SEW would send instructions as to how you need to wire the engine.

The "small spade connector that appears to be unused" needs to be wired to make the solenoid function.  The question is, "what is the solenoid's function?"

As to you question " I have a solenoid under the dash, are two actually needed?  Preferred?  Doesn't matter?" - the answer is: it depends. 

Per Al Eden, for the Command engine, it was necessary to insure max voltage to the starter so the starter has a built in solenoid and the main cable from the battery connected directly to it.  This minimized wiring length and connections to ensure max voltage.  So the Command equipped tractors had 2 solenoids (the dash mounted solenoid provided the low current "start" voltage to the engine solenoid.)  I don't know the voltage requirements of the Vanguard engine, so I don't know if you need a solenoid at the starter.  

Hopefully someone more Vanguard knowledgeable than I can chime in.

 

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Tom45

I did the same conversion.  You do not need both solenoids.  I removed the Simplicity one from under the dash and just use the one on the Vanguard starter.  My engine also came with a relay for the ignition.  I however got an ignition switch for use with the Briggs and did not use the relay. 

Tom

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wwbragg

I know nothing of the KT product but you are using a Briggs Vanguard in a 7119.  I am also rewiring a Vanguard powered 7119 and used the attached diagram because it seemed simple to follow.  The starter kicks over.  Yes, you are correct the spade on the solenoid is to other wire needed to trigger the system.

I was still writing when Tom45 posted.  Apparently, some Vanguards have a solenoid on the starter (I have an extra one on the shelf) but my motor does not.  If your motor has a solenoid, substitute it for the one you pictured but the wiring should be the same.

 

 

wiring-diagram-for-murray-ignition-switch-lawn-mower-riding.jpg

Edited by wwbragg
expansion

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MadMike

Thanks for the replies.  I did find some documentation from Briggs and Stratton showing how to test a solenoid by attaching the Primary Terminal (spade connector) directly to the positive post of the battery and the negative post to the solenoid frame.  When doing this you should hear the solenoid click. 

This tells me that the "primary terminal" is necessary for solenoid function.

Looking at the diagram PhanDad posted also shows the second wire in the 2 wire connector is indeed to the crank position on the starter switch.

I agree with Tom45, redundant solenoids seems unneeded.  IF I remove the 7119 solenoid, I would think I then need to wire the crank position on the existing key switch to the primary terminal on the Briggs solenoid.

Per Simple Wrench, the positive vs. negative ignition has me confused.  I'm assuming they've used the second wire in the two wire connector to attach to something.  I'm thinking I need to understand what this is before wiring the new solenoid to the key switch.

 

 

 

  

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PhanDad
18 minutes ago, MadMike said:

 

Looking at the diagram PhanDad posted also shows the second wire in the 2 wire connector is indeed to the crank position on the starter switch.

No, the two wires in the connector are the +12v to the KT19 ignition coil to provide spark and the +12v from the rectifier to provide power to the tractor and charge the battery when the engine in running.   Based on the info above, the Vanguard is a magneto ignition and you do not want to connect +12v to it.  To stop the engine, you ground the magneto as old Briggs single cylinder engines (hence the reference to getting a "Briggs" ignition switch rather than the "Kohler" switch in your 7119).    

The "start" or "crank" voltage comes from terminal "S" and goes through the 3 safety interlocks to the dash solenoid.  If you wire directly from the switch to the new solenoid, you'll lose all the interlocks which, IMO, isn't a good idea.  To keep the interlocks, extend the wire that goes from the last interlock (Center PTO) to the dash solenoid;  extend it to the new solenoid .

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720nut

I'm not up on this wiring , not one of my strong points but shouldn't SEW supply a wiring diagram with there kits ?

After all this is not there first rodeo as to say, just my opinion but if they're going to sell conversion kits then it should be a no frills deal.

It would in my case be a deal breaker and I'ld buy elsewhere.   Just my $.02

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simplewrench

Sorry for any confusion over positive verses negative ignition. Battery verses magneto is a clearer more correct terminology. 

A new ignition switch is indeed the first step. Phandad is definitely pointing you in the right direction. 

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MadMike

Bad terminology on my part, I was referring to the two wires coming from the dash.

SEW did supply directions, but they are based on the 7119 having original equipment wiring.  I have no idea if the wiring was ever modified.  I do know this tractor originally had a KT19 and was replaced with a Series 2 at some point in it's life.  SEW modifies the wiring harness to match up with the 7119 2 wire connector.  

I will be requesting the modified wiring diagram to determine what they do to create the "drop in replacement".

Once I have this, I'm leaning towards building an all new wiring harness.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

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MadMike

She lives.  Unlucky for me, it took a little time to get a response from SEW as the tech I was dealing with was out for a few days.

Two solenoids are not needed, SEW directed that I remove the solenoid that came with the engine and wire the positive lead directly to the starter.

Works perfectly.  Now on to the break in period and then I can finally get back to mowing and grading.

Mike

 

 

 

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hurleyii

So this post is rather old but it’s the kinda info I’m needing but the final wiring diagram was not posted. Does anybody have a vanguard wiring diagram.

 

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Tom45

To reword some earlier posts, most Kohler engines require power to the ignition circuit to run.  Most Briggs engines ground the wire from the ignition to shut off the engine.  Both require signal power sent to the starter solenoid for the solenoid to engage and crank the engine.  The schematic posted by PhanDad applies to most tractors but the difference is internal to the ignition switch.  The Kohler type ignition switch puts power to the I terminal when the switch is turned on.  The Briggs type ignition switch does nothing to the I terminal when the switch is turned on but grounds the I terminal when the switch is turned off.  Either put power to the S terminal when the key is in the start position.  It is possible to use the correct type relay to convert the Kohler type ignition power to the Briggs type, But this just adds complexity.  Two starter solenoids can be kept if both are wired in, but only one is needed and two add complexity.  The one on the starter (if equipped) is more accessable than the one under the dash.  On my Vanguard there is a red wire that comes off the regulator that is from the alternator.

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