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kwt

Vickers/Sunstrand

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kwt

I have an Allis built Homelite T-16H with Vickers , and I recently got a T-16H with a Sundstrand. My Vickers has a lever on the back of the unit to disengage so that you can push it around. It will NOT move if you don't disengage it. When I unloaded the Sunstrand from a trailer, it moved fairly easily with just a little drag. I towed it about 150' @ 1-2 mph to my garage where I started to give it the once over. I learned about the Sunstrand disconnect/disengage and disengaged it. It was engaged.

 

Has it been your experience that you can move a Sunstrand tractor without the buttons pushed down, or do you think that this unit has problems. I haven't been able to start it yet because of other problems so I don't know how it acts under power.

 

Bought it from one picture and the guy saying it ran last year. So far it's only saving grace is the tiller that came with it that I don't really need.

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rich_kildow

I have one that will not budge with the bypass bar up, another that will roll like you describe, and a prior unit that was in the middle.  My dad's moves with some force and you can tell the rear end is providing resistance, but it can be pushed around the garage if need be without bypassing.  None of these tractors have ever had any drivetrain related issues and all operate the same, expected way.  

I know that is not much help and hopefully a pro will weigh in, but in my experience, that function is all over the place.  

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kwt

I wonder if it has anything to do with check valves and or stronger springs that control the hydraulic pressure. I know that the pressure is set at different levels depending on application. Mine does not have hydro lift.

Edited by kwt

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PhanDad

My experience with Sundstrand trannies is right after using the tractor it can't be pushed without pushing the release lever down.  With time the hydraulic lock is lost and the tractor can be pushed.  The time can vary considerably; why I'm not sure.  

My first hydro tractor was a Allis built Homelite T-12 with Vickers tranny.  As you said, without the "freewheel" lever engaged, it won't budge and it doesn't leak down.  I was used to stopping the Hommie on grades and shutting it down and it would stay put.  You can't trust a Sundstrand to do the same thing.  Don't ask how I know.

There is a warning in the hydro tractor operator's manual that states: "Do not tow the tractor.  Damage will result to the transmission/transaxle".    Hopefully all will be OK with your tractor. 

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B-16_IC

My experience has been the same as the last two helpful folks, each has it's own way it seems. I have one that would roll within minutes of shutdown but still worked strong and responsive. I have one in the garage that hasn't had an engine in it in several years but still refuses to move with ease and it worked before teardown. 

I have towed a couple the distance you describe without any harm, but I did so at a slow speed. Just plain unavoidable sometimes. 

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SimpleOrange

If your able to push your Allis hydro tractor, the valve plates located under the piston barrels are probably worn allowing fluid to  by pass.  Below are the valve plates from my Allis 720.

The surface of those plates has to be perfectly flat with out grooving, I was able to lap the motor valve plate to near perfection keeping with in manufactures wear specs. May have to order a new pump valve plate.

valve.png

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kwt

Are you telling me that my T-16 (Simplicity 7016H) sunstrand is the same unit used on a 720!?

My Allis T-16 with Vickers stays locked. After reading what Phandad wrote, I already like my Vickers more, and I haven't even operated a Sunstrand yet.

Edited by kwt

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MikeES

Also my experience with the Sundstand is that you push the release down on the check valves (pins down) to roll it around and then put the release back up (pins up), you can continue to move the tractor around until you run the engine.  My guess is the check valves do not reseat until the pump is running under pressure.    So the freewheel may be due to leakage with the check valves.

Edited by MikeES

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SimpleOrange
45 minutes ago, kwt said:

Are you telling me that my T-16 (Simplicity 7016H) sunstrand is the same unit used on a 720!?

My Allis T-16 with Vickers stays locked. After reading what Phandad wrote, I already like my Vickers more, and I haven't even operated a Sunstrand yet.

Not even physically  close the only similarity they share is that both are variable pistons pumps, with similar internal engineering having same aging and wear associated problems.

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ShaunE
22 hours ago, SimpleOrange said:

Not even physically  close the only similarity they share is that both are variable pistons pumps, with similar internal engineering having same aging and wear associated problems.

Welcome over to this forum "Rusty".  The Powermax guys over here will love reading your posts.

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PhanDad

Just came across this post by Al from 2009 about towing a tractor with a Sundstrand:

HI, DO NOT TOW THIS TRACTOR 500 feet!!!! The motor in the hydro pump unit gets no oil unless the charge pump is running and the main pump is pumping oil to the motor. The charge pump DOES NOT put oil to the motor. Unlike the Vickers units on the earlier tractor that disconnect the pump assy. from the rear wheels by disconnecting the gear train, the pump on the Sunstrand units is always connected. When the tractor is towed the pump is geared up to a very high rpm and has no oil. This tears the slippers off of the pistons in the rotating group. We had a banker tow his 712 about 2 blocks about 13 years ago and it cost 1400.00 to fix it. About 1.50 per foot. The factory has always been adamant that if the motor is torn up and the pump isn't THERE IS NO WAY THIS DAMAGE CAN HAPPEN EXCEPT BY TOWING, and they would not pay warranty even if the tractor was to fail this way on the first day. It will totally destroy the motor side. One should NEVER move one of these tractors more than 50 ft and then slow by hand. The bypass is for incidental movement, like across the garage etc. Over the years, I have replaced or rebuilt about 5 units damaged from towing. I haven't priced the pump parts recently, but I expect the rotating group and valve plate would cost over 1000.00 new. Be warned. Al Eden

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SimpleOrange

This is how I got a deal on my Allis 720, previous owner towed the tractor. Just as PhanDad stated above broken slippers in addition damaged motor housing that is no longer available.

Housing on left is Allis 720 damaged fixed swash plate surface, housing on right hand side has short nose. I have the short nose motor housing at the machine shop being modified.

It would probably run you in the neighborhood south of $1500.00 just for the valve plates, pistons and cylinder blocks, then you'll need a complete bearing and gasket / seal kit.

The small pin that drives the charge pump was broken into three pieces,  that pin alone is $6.00.

I was fortunate in that an earlier Cub Cadet using the Sundstrand series 15 type "U" hydrostatic that uses the same rotating group as the in-line hydro, so that saved me a whole bunch of cash.

 

fixedplate.png

Edited by SimpleOrange

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Chris727

I have always tried to follow Al's advice on these and avoid towing or moving them for any distance. Usually if a Sunstrand does fail, its due to towing. 

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