Fuel Cells

[Dutch]

... Alkaline Fuel Cells (AFCs) were the first fuel cells to power a vehicle (an Allis-Chalmers farm tractor) in 1959. They have supplied power in all manned space missions, by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration ("NASA") since Project Gemini in 1965 (the produced water is drinkable). Some interesting reading: http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/fuelcells/phos/pho1.htm http://www.the-land.com/072100/story3.html http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/Fuel_Cells/fuel_cells.htm http://chemcases.com/cells/cells-02.htm

[JonetteP]

Hi Dutch, I enjoy posts like this. It seems amazing to me they could do this back then. Is this the same type of fuel cell used in the new cars? I helped prototype some of the new air filtration systems on the new cars. Neal

[Dutch]

Neal, My brother (a new Allis enthusiast) came by tonight with a 1959 book about Allis & fuel cells. He, like you, was amazed Allis had a running tractor in 1959. He was shocked that the principle of fuel cells was discovered in 1839. Why hasn't technology advanced? No incentive...... While Allis bit the dust, Deere is going strong giving consumers what they want (cup holders). When you think of what the USA accomplished between 1942 & 1945, we should be driving nuclear powered cars right now. Consumers want "cheap", stockholders are short sighted & greedy, infrastructure exists for petroleum, tree huggers object to everything, and lawyers & government...... oh well. If the dogs of war start biting, we may see some big changes and advances damn fast.

[MPH]

Not sure this human race is that way, but I gotta agree with you Herb, the war dogs have brought more advances to us then any other single cause. Must be the motivation of need. Really think the oil based/controled infrastructure is our biggest stubblin block, did a little window shoppin of new pick-ups in Fairbanks couple days ago, 20mpg just don't impress me in a rice rocket pick-up for 22 grand as bare bones as you can get one. One guy tried a big selling point, radio controls are in the steering wheel, look bud, if I want a Caddie I'll go to the GM dealer...I'm looking at PICK-UPs. oh, well, guess I been out in woods too long. Fuel generators make the news ever so slightly now and then up here, mostly for bush use possibilities..Just got a hunch they can be bought in other countries..ramblin....MPH

[Woodydel]

For the Tesla fans, a couple of photos. When the new highway went in the name was switched to Tesla St. I have a set of photos to pick up on Monday up close to the building by a be friended security guard. The organization is trying to purchase the property for 350,000. That's not going to happen because 17 acres goes for much more than that here. The only possibility is that the property was occupied by a company caught contaminating with chemicals years ago so it's a hazardous waste site now. They have guards there 24 hrs a day?

[Woodydel]

Dutch, What the heck is the reason for taking such a unique vehicle apart? For research? They couldn't just make a few more cells to experiment with. Did they throw the plans away? I don't expect answers. It's more like a Chris Rock monologue. This is all current stuff that's been shelved and forgotten about. This type of nonsense has been going on for ages. That's why we don't know how pyramids and obelisks were erected....MadManX

[MPH]

Dutch--neat thread. I agree, war can spur the development of many things...look at aircraft, from WW1 to WWII, and even w/in WWII. My comments relate to both of your themes, if I'm not mistaken, alternative energy sources and the military's ability to develope technologies in secret. (SEE Gov't.'s HAARP facility in TOK, ALASKA, at link below) HAARP stands for High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. Before I go any further: THE NIKOLA TESLA/ALLIS CHALMERS CONNECTION! Yes, it's true, from 1919-1922, Tesla worked w/ Allis Chalmers, to develope his "bladeless turbine," which is both a pump and a fossil fuel burning engine, depending upon which direction it's spun, and other factors. While nothing much came of this work, at that time, in that the head Allis engineer, Hans Dahlstrand, was apparently skeptical from the start, it has, since the 1980's, been used by the oil industry (heavy duty pumps) and military. It was judged, by one expert, I remember, to be more efficient than the piston engine, but not by an amount great enough to justify the enormous retooling involved in a industry-wide changeover. Is this another way of saying it was like the "100 mpg carburetor," i.e., a threat to entrenched business interests? You decide.... One of my points being, I think the gov't is already in possession of "crazy" technology straight out of science fiction, if not stolen from the research of Nikola Tesla and other inventors, and it's going on right under our noses, under innocuous websites such as the HAARP site listed below. Before we get there, however, consider this: Telsa failed to sell his idea for "the wireless transmission of power" to the military, and this was in the beginning of the LAST CENTURY! However, according to The New York Times and Newsweek, in 1987, the U.S. gov't. successfully flew a MICROWAVE POWERED airplane, a drone. It had no batteries or engine, just a motor and receiving equipment. Where did this tech. come from? Who talks about it? How is this anything less than Tesla's "wireless transmission of power?" Why was it not a "good idea" until about 80+ years later? Why is there smog over LA, from fossil fuel burning jets, if we already have this technology? Now Tesla initially sold his idea for "wireless transmission of power" to J.P. Morgan, in the early part of the LAST century, but couldn't obtain sufficient additional funds, after the initial $150,000.00 capitalization. This was enough, however, to construct a plant for this purpose (wireless power transmission) on Long Island, that STILL STANDS TODAY (tower is torn down, however). J.P. Morgan quit financing it, however, prior to any public, or irrefutable, wireless power transmission, possibly when he realized it conflicted w/ his heavy investments in COPPER, OIL, COAL AND R/R. You don't need those industries if you can transfer power wirelessly, do you? Hmmm... Tesla, later in life, allegedly had a Pierce Arrow fitted w/ a motor in place of an engine, but w/ no batteries or other, on board power source. Allegedly, it drew electrical power from the atmosphere, either transmitted or naturally-occurring (it's not known). He allegedly drove it for a week near Buffalo, NY, in the vicinity of his hydroelectric plant in Niagara Falls, NY, possibly so he had a close, free, powersource with business connections to himself. (Yes, Tesla DID design this plant, the FIRST HYDROELCTRIC PLANT. I believe it went into operation in 1-9-0-0.) The above (beam-powered planes in 1987) is apparently old news, but here's something more recent: Tesla failed to sell his ideas for VTOL (Vertical Take Off And Landing) planes to the gov't. However, we know they have them now, as the V-22 Osprey keeps killing Marines. Tesla first applied for these patents in 1921! The New York American has drawings of the mechanism by which he rotated his engine (just like the V-22 in concept), back in 1928! Another example of the military controlling "when" technology gets accepted would be it's rejection, twice, of the Wright Bros. airplane. Only when the French were about to buy it, did they capitulate and send someone to learn that it REALLY HAD BEEN flying, apparently for TWO YEARS or more (I can't remember, but have the book). Makes you wonder about those "100 MPG" carburetor stories, huh? I'm kidding about the carbs, but not about ANYTHING ELSE in this post. Other examples of the advancement of technology being controlled by the military and "big money" are Tesla's failed attempts to sell his TOTALLY VALID ideas to industry or the miliary. One HUGE example is his failure to sell his ROBOTIC BOAT the Navy, as the basis of the modern "torpedo." (Yes, Tesla invented ROBOTICS, in the form of a wireless, remote-controlled electric boat!) This was in 1898!!! (But even with a radio-controlled, WORKING MODEL, that backed up, turned and lit onboard, electric lamps, the military dismissed the electric boat as a "toy." They hadn't yet heard of the cruise missle, either, but in 1990 this technology, based on Tesla's radio-controlled model boat in 1898--92 years earlier, was publically validated.) After the military rejected his boat as a "toy," John Hammond Jr. DID sell the idea to the gov't., just a few months after Tesla's patent expired. Although it took Hammond, himself, 10 years to actually get PAID by the gov't. (he was rich anyway...), Hammond got over $1 mil. for his "torpedo," and built a castle to live through the Depression in. Hammond's musical organ, which the castle was built to "house," (because no house was big enough) had 8,000 (thousand) pipes. Tesla, on the other hand, got zip for his torpedo/wireless, robotic boat invention, neither from the gov't., nor later from Hammond, (whom he did other work for) from this invention. You can see the innards of this boat on the PBS website, below. NOW, for any of you still daring to read this--LOL (and crying?) we get to the gov't.'s HAARP website, at the link below. After looking at the nice picture, near TOK, ALASKA, (you listenin', MPH?) go to the "General Information" tab at the top of the screen, for a (fairly) simple explanation of it's alleged purpose. They do admit it has to do w/ surveillance an' such, but as I understand it, they are enhancing radio transmissions by blasting high energy "beams" thru the ionosphere. And experimenting with WEATHER CONTROL, another Tesla dream. Hey, weather? Can you say "global warming?" But I digress. Yes, there are allegations that HAARP is also involved in WEATHER CONTROL. The Navy and Air Force, in HAARP, seem to be transmitting enormous amounts of power through what was quaintly referred to as "the ether" in Tesla's day, i.e., the ionosphere, and I find it suspicious that it's being done way up out of the way in TOK, instead of near a source of "free" power, like Hoover Dam, etc.... It must be pretty serious, as they admit, right on this site, that it may screw up overflying aircraft so it does a radar-triggered auto-shutdown if one comes near. Did I mention that Tesla correctly determined the precise frequency of the earth's electrical resonance, 60 YEARS BEFORE "MODERN SCIENCE" HAD A WAY TO ASCERTAIN THIS! He needed to know this, as he felt radio waves, and his "wireless transmission of power," depended upon an interaction between the high atmosphere and the earth's basic electrical conductivity. Apparently the Earth has more metal than any of the other planets, (per mass/per volume? I don't know...) so why shouldn't it be capable of freaky electrical phenomena? (Dan, or Neal, can you explain what that measurement, referred to above, really means, so I can tell if I "get it" or not? Thanks) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MPH: The coordinates, and a reference to the TOK Hwy. HAARP site, are below, followed by links to the site for anyone interested. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The access road is located at Milepost 11.3 on the Tok highway. The geographic coordinates of the HF antenna array array are approximately 62.39 degrees (North) latitude, 145.15 degrees (West) longitude. The geomagnetic coordinates for the facility are 63.09 degrees (North) latitude and 92.44 degrees (West) longitude. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The url for the General Information page of HAARP is: http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/gen.html There is an ENTIRE PBS WEBSITE devoted to TESLA, at:http://www.pbs.org/tesla/, for anyone interested. Some people feel they have linked HAARP and/or the so-called "Chem Trails" controvery (where people report seeing extended, nondispersing contrails from jets that spew long polymers down to earth, and that HAARP is allegedly "seeding" the atmosphere with unknown substances), with adverse health effects. For those intersted in reading the "alternative press's" viewpoints on HAARP and related topics, one place to start is http://artbell.com, and he has a nationally-syndicated radio show on Coast-to-Coast AM. Tesla's legacy as the (FOR REAL) inventor of radio, flourescent lights, neon lights, the AC (brushless) induction motor, AC power transmission (wired), hydroelectric plants, X-rays, medical diathermy (used everyday by Physical Therapists!), ROBOTICS and the torpedo, to name a few (!) is largely ignored by history for a multitude of factors, one being the fact that his inventions often made established industries/technologies obsolete. Also, having been stolen from by Marconi and a boatload of others, he was forced to become very secretive about his work, which makes later documentation difficult. As an immigrant, he had few family in the U.S., and even though he became a citizen, he never married, so there was no one to continue his legacy, other than those who profited by stealing from him, and had an interest in keeping quiet about his work. In light of the absence of so many of his INDISPUTABLE discoveries from Highschool textbooks, it's no wonder that his more theoretical work was largely viewed as impossible. So let's consider, as our ancestors failed to, what life on Earth might look like if he had had a fraction of the funding needed to explore the wireless transmission of power, weather control, hovercraft (didn’t exist until the 1940’s, but Tesla was proposing it in the late 1890’s) WORLD-WIDE broadcasting (which he DID envision and want to establish, with his Wardenclyff Tower on Long Island, NY, at the turn of the LAST CENTURY)--today, we call it THE INTERNET, etc…. Lastly, imagine Telsa hearing the radio shows of the ‘teens, twenties, thirties, and early 40’s, and knowing about the salaries of the well-compensated broadcast talent, and well-paid radio company executives, and knowing that he was not getting a cent for the invention (the four-part, tuned radio circuit) that made it all possible! Then add to it that history bowed down to Marconi as radio’s inventor, until the U.S. Supreme Court straightened THAT out, in 1943, just 3 months after Tesla's death, and think about the frustration of dying penniless as the WORLD WAS CHANGED BY YOUR INVENTION—RADIO. Or by the practical harnessing of AC current, which he only received $216,000.00 for, ever, as he tore up his royalty contract early on, to avoid putting George Westinghouse into bankruptcy. (We all know no good deed goes unpunished...right?) Please tell me someone else gives a d**n…. Seriously, I would love to correspond, via email, w/ anyone on these topics (engery/Tesla). Oh, yes, so am I surprised that AC had a fuel cell-powered tractor in 1959? Well, yes. Am I surprised we don't see them on every farm? Not at all.... Thank you, Dutch. It makes the Tesla saga seem slightly less unbelievable, IMHO. [A href='http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/index.html']http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/index.html[/a]

[djarvis949]

If you go to the FORD Museum in Detroit, Edison is everywhere, Tesla, a very ugly deathmask bust in a show case toward the rear of the museum as I recall. Don

[lboy1971]

wow, you must have seen the PBS show on Tesla also?

[Woodydel]

Peter, befriend in this case means to be friendly. The guards are not allowed to admit anyone on the property. This guard or watchman offered to take the pictures of the building for me. Tommyknockers would be another possible scenario for my possible disappearance jokingly of course. The pictures were taken today. MadManX

[johnmonkey]

No, but I wish I had. I'm finishing reading my third book on Tesla, this one by Marc J. Seifer, entitled "WIZARD: The Life and Times of Nikola Tesla, Biography of a Genius," and it's excellent! How was the show? I'd love to catch it if it's on again.

[Woodydel]

My father was a Tesla "fan" and so am I. Here on Long Island just down the road from me is Tesla Blvd. near the Rocky Point-Shoreham border. Tesla set up his worldwide communication tower here. Just coincidentally just down the road is the old RCA communications complex. 5200 acres of wire strung from pole to pole in the old days. Now it's a NY State parkland. In my area there have always been communication anomalies such as bad TV reception, difficulty with radio stations, cell phones etc. I'm sure Tesla did not pick his site at random. There is something funny going on...........MadManX

[Dutch]

Peter, With all of the above, you neglected to mention Tesla's greatest invention.... the Tesla Coil. .. Without it, Frankenstein's Monster would have never lived.

[Kent]

Dutch: You are so right! But you're startin' to freak me out, as if the Allis Chalmers/Alt. Energy/Tesla connection wasn't enough. By some weird coincidence, I JUST READ what you speak of, last night, as I'm in Chapter 45 of the book, above, and on the first page of that chapter, it states, in part "the most important movie person to implement [Tesla's] wizardry was revolutionary movie producer Carl Laemmle and his special-effects expert Kenneth Strickfadden. Together, they unleased one of Tesla's unforgettable coils in the Boris Karloff classic 'Frankenstein.' (Strickfadden also resurrected the same paraphernalia forty years later when Mel Brooks recreated the set for the spoof 'Young Frankenstein.')" p. 428. Okay, I mean, I knew about his coils, (which I understand are still installed in modern televisions and radios, and under the hoods of our cars and tractors) but truthfully, there's too much that Tesla created, for me to mention it all here, although I'm sure it looks like I tried (I didn't). My question is, are you a "closet Teslafile," a movie buff, or how did you know this? Hmmmmm.... I'm feelin' that whole "Doc Savage" thing again....

[Dutch]

MadManX: No kidding? Are you near a place called "Wardenclyff?" That was the name of his worldwide communication tower. (You know the timber-framed, copper-sheathed ball or "toroid" on top, approx. 185' high, weighed like 56 TONS!?) He wasn't playin' around. I made some inquiries and they don't allow touring of the site, and I later learned there was a masonry-lined staircase going down 120', with many tunnels branching off of it, as part of Telsa's need to "grip the earth," electrically, for the launching of globe-girdling power pulses. No wonder the public is not allowed to stumble around there. If you are nearby, I would love it if you got some actual pics of the place, or had any further info on visiting it. We were told "no way" to tour it. And I'm sure you're correct when you say "I'm sure Tesla did not pick his site at random. There is something funny going on....", because when he built his lightening-generating, ELF-transmitting, experimental station in Colorado, he specifically picked that location, in part, due to it's wild electrical storms. It was there that he allegedly bounced electrical pulses through the entire Earth, and back, making the longest man-made lightening flashes, TO THIS DAY! (Think it was 120' high...) The link below goes to a Wardencliff organziation, but I can't link pics from my computer, or don't know how. (Dutch, the pic of the tower is cool, if you feel like attaching it that'd be great, as people might like it?) Anyway, I'd love to know whether or not you're near the tower site, Woody. Peter[A href='http://www.teslascience.org/']http://www.teslascience.org/[/a]

[UCD]

The Tesla Wardenclyffe Project. http://www.teslascience.org/archive/photographs/TWP16.jpg

[UCD]

The Tesla Wardenclyffe Project. http://www.teslascience.org/archive/photographs/TWP20a.jpg

[Dutch]

Peter, No, I'm not a "closet Teslafile". I just find exploring the backgrounds of significant people amazing. Tesla was a Serbian who immigrated to the U.S. This country is a magnet for talent from all around the world. As Emma Lazarus so beautifully stated, “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” Foreign countries did (and still do), and here we are......... a super power.

[Woodydel]

There is no place called Wardenclyff here on Long Island. Most likely it's an old estate name. I'll drive by there and snoop around. If you don't here from me for a long time the aliens got me. Hope I don't see any clowns.(as in Steven King's book). You left out Tesla's abilities with mathematics. He did most of it in his head. He memorized entire log tables. My Dad the Tesla "fan" must have been greatly influenced and when I was a kid I remember standing at attention doing math problems in my head for my Dad. Later in high school this caused many problems for me with questions like "how did you arrive at your answer?". I've met several people in the past that could be classified geniuses. The latest was a man in the Adirondacks. His name is Renee' B. He did things with electricity NOBODY ever did before except for Tesla of course. He showed me and my son solutions to problems with electricity of which I made notes. This man lives in the woods away from industry and taught himself how to do amazing things just out of necessity. He told me that he never listened to anyone with negative comments about what he was trying to figure out....MadManX

[MPH]

Pete I gave up on bars many moons ago so I nolonger get that side of the story. 9/11 made me realize how badly most people in Tok haven't a clue there is a 'rest of the world'..You got me thinkin on it again, I might have to hang out around Glenallen a little. Never has been anything on the news about it, when the generator plant was built it was part of a the back-scanner radar system, the transmitter half, and Tok was suppose to have the recieving portion. not sure why that system got axed, about the same time the berlin wall come down and all them bad commies moved to Boulder Co and Calif Universty..MPH

[MPH]

Peter, the hugh generator building,all brand new, that can be seen off the Tok cutoff is about 100 miles from me. It is about 30 mile from Glennallen and if you can find Gakona on a map where Neil has family living, its in thier back yard. Coal is hauled some 200 miles to fire this plant that sits maybe 20 miles from a 4 foot pipe full of flowing crude oil. Its called follow the dollar train..As to activities involved in it, I don't believe any thruth is out on it, kinda like Roswell..MPH

[djarvis949]

Don: I'm not surprised. Henry Ford is another of my heros, (despite his antisemitism, which is certainly regrettable) and he was friends w/ Edison, who was, in many respects, a real S.O.B., despite his obvious genius (over 1,000 patents, I read?). But it is satisfying to note that Edison’s DC-based system failed to be adopted, but Tesla’s AC system was adopted, on planet Earth, anyway. When Henry was having trouble w/ the ignition system on the "T," he consulted with Edison, and on many other occasions, I believe. Edison was a plodder, as well as a limited visionary, IMHO, and a good businessman, like Henry, whereas Tesla was much more of a "discoverer" and visionary, yet a poor businessman. I think he viewed business as a way to get funding to do more of what he loved, the research and discovery of ways to improve man's lot. I'd love to go to the Ford Museums...did you see Greenfield Village, a whole town of famous buildings Henry put in one place, as a living town? I'd love to get there one day. I'm saddened, but not surprised, by the "short shrift" apparently given Tesla at the Ford Museum--actually, (and pathetically) I'm kind of pleased they had ANYTHING at all on him, which is more than most. There has been an ongoing "stink" that the Smithsonian has apparently virtually ignored Tesla for many years, and still largely does. I haven't been to Wash., DC since I discovered Tesla, but I plan to go back. I've heard they have a pic or bust of Edison w/ an (unnamed) Tesla oscillator infront of him, and that that was "it" as far as any credit to Tesla, in the Smithsonian. I'll freak if that's still the case! Just so you all know how PERVASIVE the "institutionalized ignoring" of Tesla's accomplishments is, I had a moderator remove, JUST YESTERDAY, from a WORLD-WIDE, respectable internet "how to" or "research" website, the following link, and this is the EXACT TEXT of the link: "The Invention of the Radio As invented by Guglielmo Marconi in 1895," Now, the website’s moderator stated SHE was not responsible for the entirely erroneous content of the Marconi-biased site SHE linked to, but LOOK at the text she put up on her site—the wording of the LINK ITSELF discredits Tesla!!! ALSO, I do not believe the following statement was on the site before yesterday, in a different, related page, but it’s there today: “(Note: Nikola Tesla is now credited with having inventing (sic) modern radio; the Supreme Court overturned Marconi's patent in 1943 in favor of Tesla.)” Now, I can't be sure that the above note wasn't there before yesterday, but since I REMINDED her of the 1943 decision, and I don't recall seeing ANY mention of Tesla where this statement now appears, AND b/c it's in "parens," it kind of smacks of an unacknowledged correction. I'm 90% sure it wasn't there, before. Let me also say that this woman insulted me, in both of the first two of her “rebuttal” emails, and was snotty in her third email, as well, and told me I should have seen her ACCURATE Tesla webpage, located elsewhere, as if her “getting it right” in one place justified her promulating an injustice in another. This miscrediting the origin of "tuned circuit radio" has been going on for 107 years total, (since Tesla first sent radio signals 30 miles up the Hudson River) and 59 years since the U.S. Supreme Court stated, unequivocally, that TESLA, and NOT MARCONI, invented radio. 59 years, or 107, it's unbelievable that it's still being reported incorrectly! How should we trust the news we saw last night...? If any of you have highschool kids, w/ science or history texts, and want to see me “go into another dimension,” cite me examples of the continuing misrepresentation of the inventor of radio, from your kid’s textbooks. I’d like to know if what I read (that the textbooks are all still wrong) is true or not. So let’s review: in the FIFTY-NINE years that History, and textbook publishers, have had to get it right, since the Supremes cleared it up, so many schools, publishers, and SCIENCE-ORIENTED websites (in this case, I blame laziness on the moderator’s part) continue to miscontrue or, worse, totally ignore Tesla’s legacy. It’s so refreshing that any of you care, but then, this is simpletractors.com, isn’t it? Where “thinkging people come to tractor?” MadManX--did you go out TODAY, and take those pics for me? I'm touched, really. But seriously, those are real views you won't see elsewhere, and I do appreciate it--it's exciting. Did you actually "befriend" the security guard today? I'd like to know his or her name...can you put in a good word for me, so I can gawk, unmolested, when I go? Also, I agree, why disassemble the fuelcelled-Allis, unless, of course, the componenents were "top secret." My father reminded me, today, that he worked for an Allis dealer for 6 years, I'm gonna guess in the '50's, and he said the company was into all kinds of crazy projects and research, for the military, so that's what I thought of when you mentioned how the tractor was partially disabled. Does anyone know how the Allis fuel cell differed from the modern "hydrogen" fuel cells, if at all? MPH: So the feeling, up there, is that the HAARP facility is "more than meets the eye," on that innocuous-looking website? What's the barroom scuttlebutt on it? Anybody do deliveries or contracting there? Got any juicy tidbits? I liked how your point about how they have to haul coal 200 miles to fire that place is consistent with my question...why locate such a plant so far from easy sources of heavy power? Hmmm... On this topic, our cottage is near Watertown, NY, 20 miles away from "Fort Drum," in NYS. I found something just last week indicating that the surveillance research technology that is involved in HAARP (I believe) is heavily used at Fort Drum, so it seems we are both within miles of some serious stuff. Fort Drum’s elite "10th Mountain Division" is at the forefront in Afgahnistan now. This past November, I saw weird, yellowish/orange lights, low in the sky, under the low clouds. They appeared for 2 seconds, moved a little, and disappeared, only to be replaced by others, a few minutes later. The looked NOTHING like flares, as they had no "hang time," i.e., they went out quickly. I called a neighbor lady and she said "Oh yeah, we see those all the time. It's from Fort Drum." I thought, "Oh, okay, well, why would I worry about THAT?" Right! However, MPH, have you heard of any health effects associated with HAARP? I hope not but, sadly, for me, something recently is up with my hands (acts like arthritis, but I'm only 40 yr. old, and no trouble before this…) and started right after New Years, right after I moved away from Fort Drum, having lived at the cottage 6 months straight, working on its foundation. Now I'm not sure it's HAARP at Fort Drum, or some other "high-atmosphere-based" surveillance technology--I'll have to go to the site again. But it makes me wonder, as I saw various symptoms allegedly related to the "chem trails" I mentioned earlier, including sinus, flu-like symptoms, and Arthritis. Just like to know if you've heard anything. Appreciate it. Woody--I've read over half of Steven King's stuff--I read the ones I like, and drop the ones I don't. I hear ya re: "the aliens." Did you read his "Tommyknockers?" Liked that one. Sorry to write so much, but you guys are hittin’ one nerve after another in this thread—LOL. (And apologies to anyone who’s reading this and isn’t interested). Peter

[JDSnyder]

J***S! Go to the link below...just scroll down to see the black & white NOAA sat. photos over Saudia Arabia, and the explanation of Chem Trails--allegedly, the govt. releasing aerosals of barium salts, and "probably aluminum oxide" and other goodies, to produce 3-D radar mapping, weather control, and a couple of other things we didn't need, I'm sure. (NOAA = the National Oceanic Atmospheric Association--they produce the some of the "weather radio" broadcasts heard on your weather radios...) This site ALSO connects HAARP to Telsa's work.... Let's not forget the first ones to seize possession of Tesla's papers, upon his death, was Uncle Sam. Only later were "most" of them allegedly released to the Tesla Museum in Serbia. And that doesn't count all the research that "blew away," literally, when Wardenclyffe was first vandalized, then it's contents sold off. Does anyone recognize this "Genesis" broadcasting network that seems to be supporting the website? Are they any kind of reliable? I see radio shows referred to--anybody heard of them? I know Art Bell's a little flaky, but this whole site looks muy serioso. Now, I do note there is almost NO FOOTNOTING to back up any of the assertions on this website, so maybe it's not true. This lack COULD mean it's all B.S., but it could also mean just poor scholarship. But that would seem to be inconsistent with the academic, high-tech stuff their preaching about. So what do you think? These chem trails ARE being reported on a number of different sites on the net, and I believe I've seen references to documentation in respected print media, but I'm not sure.... MPH: Thanks for the update, and watch where you stick your nose...you're the only one we've got "on site," as it were. You can "keep 'em honest." Peter[A href='http://home1.gte.net/quakker/Documents/Chemtrails_Over_America.htm#COA']http://home1.gte.net/quakker/Documents/Chemtrails_Over_America.htm#COA[/a]

[Dutch]

Peter, The above link looks like one of those conspiracy websites. If you are interested in conspiracy theories, answer the following. How are HAARP and Chem Trails related to fuel cells, Allis and today's Simplicity tractors? Hints: ARCO (Atlantic Richfield Oil Co.) Sauer-Danfoss Sunstrand-Sauer Hamilton-Sundstrand Degussa-Huls Karl Schmidt Bernard Eastlund Weave away...............

[Dadsy98]

... another thread gone terribly off course... But, A good read. this could permutate to a website of it's own. I have heard of a DNA analysis of Tesla's remains. It was performed about five or so years ago. The results surprised the folks. The DNA patterns had no recognizable patterns coherent with the european model. AND did not come close to any other geographical set of defined traits. Hmmm, can you say alien?