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mcd

Deck spindle assembly issue

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mcd

I took apart the spindles so I could clean everything up and put in new bearings. After putting everything back together and tightening the top and bottom bolts the pulley and blade do not want to spin. If I loosen it just a tiny bit it spins freely. I'm not sure what could be stopping it but I'm hoping someone here is smarter than me and can tell me what I'm doing wrong. Thanks!

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fishnwiz

It almost sounds like the bearings are not seated all the way into the shaft or incorrect size bearings were used. There should be no binding no mater how tight you make the arbor onto the deck.

Edited by fishnwiz

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mcd
3 hours ago, fishnwiz said:

It almost sounds like the bearings are not seated all the way into the race or incorrect size bearings were used. There should be no binding no mater how tight you make the arbor onto the deck.

Thanks for the response. I'll take them apart and make sure they are seated properly. These are the bearings I bought.   Maybe I shouldn't have bought knock offs :|

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PhanDad

My thoughts are similar.  Bearings not pressed onto shaft all the way.

Many people have used knock-offs, but measure to make sure they're the same height as the originals.  If they're taller, then the distance between the outer bearing faces might be greater than design and the arbor halves aren't deep enough to accommodate the additional length.  

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mcd
1 hour ago, PhanDad said:

My thoughts are similar.  Bearings not pressed onto shaft all the way.

Many people have used knock-offs, but measure to make sure they're the same height as the originals.  If they're taller, then the distance between the outer bearing faces might be greater than design and the arbor halves aren't deep enough to accommodate the additional length.  

I think I tossed all the old ones so I don't have anything to compare the new ones to. I'll take them apart today while I'm watching basketball and see if they are all the way onto the shaft or not.

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PhanDad

With spring just around the corner, I'm also working on spindles ATM.  So I took some measurements for you.  The bearings are Fafnir P204RR6, Simplicity old stock.

The depth of a bearing is 0.605" at the outer race.

The distance between the outer race faces of the bearings fully seated on the shaft is 3.500" 

Measurements were taken with a fiberglass dial caliper so the measurements are pretty good.  

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steve-wis

Just thinking, you did put the spacer between the bearings, right?  If you didn't you could be pulling the inner races toward each other and binding them instead of tightening on the spacer.  I have used the Chinese bearings with no problem.  Most of the american ones are now made there as well.  Also, there are thin shims that go on the shaft before the first bearing, make sure they are put in the same place.  I think Zippo has a video on changing these bearings that is pretty good on Youtube if you want to check that out too.

 

Steve

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PhanDad
24 minutes ago, steve-wis said:

Just thinking, you did put the spacer between the bearings, right? 

I was thinking he has the "new" 2 piece arbor housing (cone bottom and "flat" top).  It doesn't have any spacer between the bearings like the old 1 piece arbor tube has.  

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mcd
1 hour ago, PhanDad said:

With spring just around the corner, I'm also working on spindles ATM.  So I took some measurements for you.  The bearings are Fafnir P204RR6, Simplicity old stock.

The depth of a bearing is 0.605" at the outer race.

The distance between the outer race faces of the bearings fully seated on the shaft is 3.500" 

Measurements were taken with a fiberglass dial caliper so the measurements are pretty good.  

I appreciate you taking the measurements. I just measured them myself with a tape measure and it looks like they match up right. I had a spacer in at the bottom of the arbor? (picture below). Maybe this is messing me up?

Bearing 2.jpg

Bearing1.jpg

Spacer.jpg

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PhanDad

The "spacer" the problem.  The "spacer" is the "grass shield"; it goes on the outside of the cone.  All of the bottom parts (and top parts also) after the shaft with both bearings are installed into the arbor housing halves.  I bolt the halves together with 3 bolts while assembling the outside pieces.  This includes the "shim washer" that covers the face of the lower bearing (Although it can be installed before the arbor shaft with bearings since it's smaller in diameter than the bearing outer race).  

 arbor_btm_parts.thumb.jpg.928966e440f5636e803d8b74c0e58eac.jpg

(That's a piece of wood holding the grass shield vertical)

The top also has a "bearing shield" (like the grass shield but without the drain holes) between the top of the arbor and pulley:

Arbor_Endplay_DNtop02.JPG.7366dd2aff03191c27fdf67ad2ea0554.JPG

(No shim washer on top of bearing, only bottom has one)

 

Edited by PhanDad
Added pic of arbor top

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PhanDad

It doesn't appear your bottom arbor housing (cone) has a grease fitting, the early ones didn't. 

Although the bearing are sealed, after you insert the shaft with bearing into the bottom housing you may want to fill (or partially fill) the cone above the bearing with grease, then install the top housing.  The extra grease supposedly help keep water out of the bottom bearing.  

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mcd
4 minutes ago, PhanDad said:

It doesn't appear your bottom arbor housing (cone) has a grease fitting, the early ones didn't. 

Although the bearing are sealed, after you insert the shaft with bearing into the bottom housing you may want to fill (or partially fill) the cone above the bearing with grease, then install the top housing.  The extra grease supposedly help keep water out of the bottom bearing.  

You are right. Only one of the cones has a grease zirk. I took everything apart again and it seems like the issue is coming from the black piece that goes in between the cone and the top of the arbor. It seems to be preventing the bearing to meet the top piece. Is this piece necessary?

Spindle parts.jpg

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PhanDad
44 minutes ago, mcd said:

it seems like the issue is coming from the black piece that goes in between the cone and the top of the arbor.

As I said above, there isn't anything that goes in or between the housing halves (not counting the "foam gasket" some 2 piece arbors have).  

The black full diameter ring shown in your pic above, is a spacer ring.  It's used when a new style arbor is used in a deck with old style arbors or if you had an early new style arbor deck with "deep pockets" and replaced the deck shell with a new "shallow pocket deck".  

Depending on what your deck started out as and what it is now that you now have would determine if you need the rings at all.  They come standard with replacement arbor kits.  Since one of your cone arbor housing halves has a grease fitting, probably one of the arbors was replaced with the kit and the ring used (most likely incorrectly).

See this post for lots of detail info:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/59798-48-mower-deck-shell/

Post the mfg# and a pic of your deck shell and the blades and I can advise if you need the ring installed.

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mcd
11 minutes ago, PhanDad said:

As I said above, there isn't anything that goes in or between the housing halves (not counting the "foam gasket" some 2 piece arbors have).  

The black full diameter ring shown in your pic above, is a spacer ring.  It's used when a new style arbor is used in a deck with old style arbors or if you had an early new style arbor deck with "deep pockets" and replaced the deck shell with a new "shallow pocket deck".  

Depending on what your deck started out as and what it is now that you now have would determine if you need the rings at all.  They come standard with replacement arbor kits.  Since one of your cone arbor housing halves has a grease fitting, probably one of the arbors was replaced with the kit and the ring used (most likely incorrectly).

See this post for lots of detail info:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/59798-48-mower-deck-shell/

Post the mfg# and a pic of your deck shell and the blades and I can advise if you need the ring installed.

Sorry I should have realized that from your previous comment. I don't have the mfg# but here is a picture. Keep in mind all of these spindles have been recently removed and put back on so I might have put them on wrong in the pictures. I should have taken more pictures before I took them apart but you're right they could have been installed incorrectly from the previous owner. All 3 spindles did have the black piece installed.

Deck 1.jpg

Deck 2.jpg

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PhanDad

I looks like you have an older "deep pocket" deck.  The blades should be flat vs "gull wing" shaped with the newer "shallow pocket" decks.  

Assuming this is correct, the arbors should be mounted on top of the deck without any rings as shown in this pic of my 42" "deep pocket" deck:

IMG_9216.JPG

Note only the "taptite" bolts are used, with the heads underneath the deck.

All of your pulleys should have the extended, two diameter hubs (that face down toward the top bearing shield):

#1655867 Pulley Btm.JPG

With the arbors installed as described, the plane of blade cut will be in the "design" location relative to the front lip of the deck shell for the best cut.

The problem many of have with these decks, is even with all new parts (mainly rollers and roller bar), you're lucky if you can get a 3" cut.  

So what some folks do is mount one of the rings between the arbor and the deck to raise the plane of cut.  Longer bolts with nuts are used to secure the arbor in place.  When this is done, the belt tension lever and/or pulley must also be raised for belt alignment.  Maybe that's what the PO did.

The 2 arbors that are installed in your deck appear to have the ring between the arbor top and deck bottom.  With that setup, the cut will be even lower and I don't think the lever arm/pulley can be lowered enough for good belt alignment.

 

Edited by PhanDad
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mcd
2 hours ago, PhanDad said:

I looks like you have an older "deep pocket" deck.  The blades should be flat vs "gull wing" shaped with the newer "shallow pocket" decks.  

Assuming this is correct, the arbors should be mounted on top of the deck without any rings as shown in this pic of my 42" "deep pocket" deck:

IMG_9216.JPG

Note only the "taptite" bolts are used, with the heads underneath the deck.

All of your pulleys should have the extended, two diameter hubs (that face down toward the top bearing shield):

#1655867 Pulley Btm.JPG

With the arbors installed as described, the plane of blade cut will be in the "design" location relative to the front lip of the deck shell for the best cut.

The problem many of have with these decks, is even with all new parts (mainly rollers and roller bar), you're lucky if you can get a 3" cut.  

So what some folks do is mount one of the rings between the arbor and the deck to raise the plane of cut.  Longer bolts with nuts are used to secure the arbor in place.  When this is done, the belt tension lever and/or pulley must also be raised for belt alignment.  Maybe that's what the PO did.

The 2 arbors that are installed in your deck appear to have the ring between the arbor top and deck bottom.  With that setup, the cut will be even lower and I don't think the lever arm/pulley can be lowered enough for good belt alignment.

 

Your responses are always thorough and are much appreciated. I have pics of the deck prior to taking everything apart and I know the top piece was installed under the deck not on the top. I tried installing them on top which worked fine for the outter 2 but the top piece would not fit in the middle section due to the shape of the deck. I'll try installing them on the bottom of the deck without using the black spacer.

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