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ACT816

Powermax 9020 Rear PTO Coupler and vibration

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ACT816

Hey guys, just wondering if anyone has gone through this before.  This is on my Powermax 9020.  I had cut the grass and was driving back to it's "house" and it just started making noise and vibrating.  I had to go on a trip for business so couldn't mess with it right away.  I just got done opening it up and this is what I saw.  It appears that for some reason the rear PTO clutch assembly was able to slightly shift and force the PTO shaft forward.  I don't know if this was the cause or indication, and the flex coupling bent to the point that the shaft bolts are hard up against the double pulley.  Thankfully the somewhat local place has new flex couplings in stock. 

There is absolutely no more play in the splines for the end of the shaft.  I saw someone else adjusted their bushings and wondering if this isn't the route I may need to go to prevent damage.  It's still going to be really tight and from my experience there should be at least a little - 1/8" minimum - play for preventing exactly this.  

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  It just seems odd to me unless this is the failure mode for the flex couplings.

Yes, I had started taking this apart in the pictures, which is why there is space and the wrench in the photo... :-)

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Thanks,

Dave

 

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ACT816

Well, spent some time with the tractor and dial indicator.  I installed a new flex coupling, which had one hole for the double belt adapter not drilled correctly causing the bolt to not go through.

i made the mistake of not checking clearance for the other bolts for the adapter for the shaft.  There was no play for alignment.  I ended up taking it apart after marking the direction the coupler needed to go.

i also replaced the original bushing for the stand-offs with a smaller bushing and a couple of washers.  To allow the coupling nuts to not bind on the adapter I switched to drilled fender washers and jam nuts.

in the end it’s aligned but the rear shaft would continue to spin.  Guessing the rear clutch is starting to go.  I did grease what I could and after cutting the grass the shaft isn’t spinning but keeping my eyes open for another clutch.

 

 

37E34BB0-7273-4EE2-90A0-555691C187E8.jpeg

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SimpleOrange

I always idle the tractor down before engaging the magnetic PTO clutch, if the coil in mine ever burned out I would rewind the coil.

 

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ShaunE

There is a bolt in the back side if the clutch assembly that may have loosened up.  I can't seem to get the page to copy to here at the moment.  On page 38 0f the 1690283 9020 parts manual, the bolt is #23.  I use blue loctite.  If this loosens up, the entire clutch will shift forward & the air-gap will widen to the point the clutch won't engage.

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ACT816

Shaun,

    Thanks.  Here's the odd thing, my PTO will engage.  I have something else going on with this thing and I need to confirm it either is, or is not, the rear PTO.  I put my tiller on the beast yesterday and it turns on and off without issue.  I don't get it.

     I had some vibration on the clutch as well, I snugged the adjustment a bit (it's been two years since the new belts were installed) and it's not vibrating now.  However, there is still something making a vibration and to me it feels like it's right where the PTO clutch is.  I'm wondering if I had a bearing go out or ?  I've pulled some of the previous threads on the bearings and seals.  I'm thinking of pulling the forward shaft and PTO clutch out and running the thing to confirm it is the rear pto. 

    Shaun, I pulled the drawing from my parts manual, and #23 is not a bolt.  Obviously I have a different version of the parts manual as mine also only goes to page 36 :-)

On the drawing below, do you mean item 17?

image.thumb.png.10d0babf824d2d06ee1eab703d841d2a.png

 

Thanks!

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

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ShaunE

Yes.  In your manual it's #17.  #35 will also cause the same symptoms. 

Edited by ShaunE

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ACT816

Ok, so I’m just guessing that when you unbolt the four bolts on the rear of the clutch, the bolt for the forward shaft isn’t supposed to be free?🤣

 

 

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SimpleOrange

Looks like you have all the right pieces, thinking maybe your bolt is a bit longer than mine and may have bottomed out thus not allowing the bolt to streach when torqued properly.

Simple used thread locker on most of the bolts.

 

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ACT816

I removed the front clip but the shaft didn’t didn’t separate, so I’m thinking of putting everything back together, with Loctite, and go from there.  Nothing looks damaged.  I’m just not sure if the shaft moved or not.

 

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phillobbezoo

Any time I pull one of these rear ptos apart everything gets loctite, I've bought more then one of these tractors where that bolt was loose damaging the threads in either  of the shafts. 

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SimpleOrange

Most of the time its the spline on the shaft and the involout spine inside the flanged hud that gets damaged. Is there any wiggle or back and forth movment at the flange and shaft if so check the splines for damage.

A forum member from another site had these made up from 4140.

 

 

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ACT816

Thanks for the info.  I’ll double check the threads.  

I’m also thinking of measuring the shaft length and working on a different coupling configuration.  

Anyone ever change these out? 

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ShaunE

So glad it worked out without catastrophic results. 

There is going to be a complete shaft with Warner clutch available in the near future.  I am located 7 miles from Warner Electric.  The finished product is in the final stages of testing right now in WI.  It is not going to be cheap, but it will be available as a direct fit replacement soon, with a newer/readily available Warner clutch.  I am not involved with the project but know the two individuals that are.

When it is complete, it will be posted here.

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ACT816

Interesting, hopefully they eliminate the fiber disc setup.

I got it back together and it runs the way it’s supposed to, nice and smooth.  I did tap the shaft and remove a bunch of gunk from the thread area but it doesn’t seem like there was any damage, just debris.

Shaft runout is also better as well.  It’s around.010 total.

Next project is to swap in the backup hydro...

 

thanks for the suggestions!

 

 

 

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SimpleOrange
1 hour ago, ACT816 said:

Interesting, hopefully they eliminate the fiber disc setup.

I got it back together and it runs the way it’s supposed to, nice and smooth.  I did tap the shaft and remove a bunch of gunk from the thread area but it doesn’t seem like there was any damage, just debris.

Shaft runout is also better as well.  It’s around.010 total.

Next project is to swap in the backup hydro...

 

thanks for the suggestions!

 

I think that ShaunE is perhaps alluding to some in house work taking place at Warner in regards to the electric clutch used on our Allis and Simplicitys and that the research going on there has nothing to do with the front flex coupling.

Between my Simplicity and the snow thrower there are a total of three fibre disks used and none have given me any trouble. and there were times I was blasting through frozen snow that had turned to ice.

When I first saw the snow thrower that came with the tractor had a very low opinion of it but that has changed after using it for the past two years, I now have high regard for the engineering and heavy construction of that blower.

 

 

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equipment guy

The fiber disc coupler is ingenious.  It is simple, and extremly rugged.  I have had tractors with this set up since my first homelite T-10 when I was 14.

On another note, a readily available new replacement rear PTO clutch would be great, and would breath new life into these setups. I have had issues with these clutches over the years, as I do a lot of heavy tilling, and run a bush hog.  The remainder of the PTO driveline has been fine with periodic maintainance.  Over the last few years, I have managed to collect 3 spare clutches in addition to the functioning ones that are in my 2 regularly used tractors.  Still I get nervous every time I flip the rear PTO switch.  I hope to use these tractors for many years to come, but its hard to stockpile multiple pieces of every part on the tractor, for fear of not finding replacements in the future.  Another item I would like to see reproduced is the splined axel shafts.

Edited by equipment guy

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ShaunE

It's just a bunch of nuts, bolts, welded & machined iron all held together by Voodoo & Dust.

It's the initiative, time & finding someone to re-produce these components if you don't have the skill & or equipment to do it yourself.  That is what makes this club so great in my opinion.  It's not necessarily about being able to fix it but knowing where to go to get it fixed.  & with the network of people here that share that knowledge & resources with everyone else.  Take that hub that @SimpleOrange is referring to above.  If you have read his posting on another site, you will realize the initiative, time & effort that went in to having it reproduced & then to share it with everyone else.  There are too many individuals to list that I have learned a great deal from on this site.  Some of the most talented mechanics & fabricators are right here.

@SmilinSam was the reason I joined back in the day because he took the time to send me step by step instructions on splitting a 712 apart to repair a leaky bevel gear box.  I was terrified! 

11 hours ago, equipment guy said:

Another item I would like to see reproduced is the splined axel shafts

There was a two part Youtube video series years ago that I can't find anymore that showed a guy machining one of these, hardening it & running the tractor afterwards.  It was awesome to watch & I wish I could find it.

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720nut
5 hours ago, ShaunE said:

It's just a bunch of nuts, bolts, welded & machined iron all held together by Voodoo & Dust.

It's the initiative, time & finding someone to re-produce these components if you don't have the skill & or equipment to do it yourself.  That is what makes this club so great in my opinion.  It's not necessarily about being able to fix it but knowing where to go to get it fixed.  & with the network of people here that share that knowledge & resources with everyone else.  Take that hub that @SimpleOrange is referring to above.  If you have read his posting on another site, you will realize the initiative, time & effort that went in to having it reproduced & then to share it with everyone else.  There are too many individuals to list that I have learned a great deal from on this site.  Some of the most talented mechanics & fabricators are right here.

@SmilinSam was the reason I joined back in the day because he took the time to send me step by step instructions on splitting a 712 apart to repair a leaky bevel gear box.  I was terrified! 

There was a two part Youtube video series years ago that I can't find anymore that showed a guy machining one of these, hardening it & running the tractor afterwards.  It was awesome to watch & I wish I could find it.

Shaun agree 100*/. with ya without everyone on here few would be able to enjoy these fantastic machines.

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ACT816

So, low rpm everything is fine.  Run it up and then the output shaft starts spinning.  Not sure what that is other than the clutch.

 

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SimpleOrange
1 hour ago, ACT816 said:

So, low rpm everything is fine.  Run it up and then the output shaft starts spinning.  Not sure what that is other than the clutch.

 

I'm confused, run it up then the output shaft starts spiining.

The front section of that PTO shaft is directly coupled to the engine via the fibre disk and should turn at any rpm.

I asked earlier in this thread if you were getting any side play or wobble on the rear coupler, this would be item 33 in the parts list, under extreme operating conditions such as brush hogging or tilling. After years of hard use the internal splines inside the hub wear out, also the external spines on the pto shaft that goes through the transmission will have worn external splines.

Item 38 the pto input shaft uses a roller bearing installed at the front of the transmission case, with a small needle type bearing at the rear, with the transmission tunnel cover removed take a 4 ft piece of 2x4 use it to leverage item 33 from side to side and take note it there is any free play.

 

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ACT816

Yes, when I first put it back together the rear output shaft was not spinning.  It was relatively late so I couldn’t run it up too far.  

When I went to cut grass and brought up the rpm, u could hear a change, it wasn’t the same as before but still not what I expected.  Checking showed the rear output shaft spinning.  At this point it pretty much spins if I run the engine.

I’ll back to working on it tomorrow.  Spent the day putting fencing up around apple trees. 

Any other bearings that would make sense?  Thoughts on the actual clutch?

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ShaunE

I'm stumped.  Unless there is something binding in the clutch itself not allowing the disconnect.  It's been so long since I had mine apart to replace bearings & field assembly I can't tell you if a bad bearing would cause this.

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SimpleOrange
26 minutes ago, ShaunE said:

I'm stumped.  Unless there is something binding in the clutch itself not allowing the disconnect.  It's been so long since I had mine apart to replace bearings & field assembly I can't tell you if a bad bearing would cause this.

You nailed it, bearing is having a seizure.

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ACT816

SimpleOrange, I’ll try your test but I’m guessing from the sound of it, it’s going to be the front bearings for the clutch, yes?

I”lol see what I can still get for the bearings as well.  From a couple of other posts it sounds like at least one of the bearings is like finding hen’s teeth.

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