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Snojetter

Briggs Vanguard Transplant

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Snojetter

I could use some knowledge from the Briggs experts.  I've got a lead on an Allis 716 that has had a 16hp Vanguard transplant.  The tractor itself is kinda hacked up, but it's not terrible.  My primary interest is the motor, though.  The seller has a pretty reasonable price on the tractor and I had a thought that I could take the motor and put it into my 917 that has a pretty tired KT.  So my first question is if the frame and gearbox alignment between the 700-series and 900-series is the same to the point where this could (in theory) be a straight bolt-in to my 917 using whatever sort of mount and driveshaft is currently on the 716?  OR, do you guys think there will still be a need for some fabricating or significant mods?

Secondly, the currently owner has had the tractor since 2003 and he purchased it with the Vanguard already installed.  Therefore, the motor is at least 15 years old.  He says it does smoke on start-up and does use a pint of oil every 4-6 hours depending on how hard he works it...that seems like a lot to me.  He's tested compression at 160 and 165 psi - my gut says that's good, but I'm not going to claim to be an expert (I've had old Briggs motors run fine with 100 psi, but this an entirely different breed than I'm used to).  Might this be a case of needing rings and nothing more?  Or would there be concern of more rebuild expense required?

The numbers off the motor are: model 303447; Type 0375-01 (with the numbers 1874 underneath that); Code 92041611

It appears this is still a current engine or at least a version of it. (https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200161524_200161524?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Engines > Briggs %26 Stratton Horizontal Engines > 391Cc - 600Cc Briggs %26 Stratton Horizontal Engi&utm_campaign=Briggs %26 Stratton&utm_content=6007&gclid=CjwKCAjw7vraBRBbEiwA4WBOn2qotylLG1Bxd7MeGBckjxcuZvzc8uZagMXRcZYuIt2bf1EZ6JhZhhoCs54QAvD_BwE)

Any reason for concern on an old engine like this from a reliability standpoint, or parts availability?  By the way, the asking price for the tractor and mower is just $250, so it seems like a decent deal...unless the motor gives one pause.

Thanks for your input!

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SmilinSam

I put a 16 Vanguard in a 917 a loooong time ago. As I recall I used a riser plate, a driveshaft adaptor,  and a longer driveshaft out of something else. As long as the tractor its in has the riser plater and the driveshaft adaptor, the only thing you should need is a driveshaft that is long enough. to use in the 900 series. That and the wiring changes to use a Briggs magneto ignition keyswitch.

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Snojetter

So that leads me to believe that the 700 frame and the 900 frame would have the same engine mounting holes, but maybe different locations relative to the BGB (hence the need for a different driveshaft)?

(Sam, I know you mentioned to me in a PM several weeks ago that you believe the 900-frames contained holes for both singles and twins.)

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B-16_IC

900 do indeed have holes for both single and twin 

My favorite swap is a 16hp Briggs single in place of a KT 17! 666

700 series are more finicky about swaps without mods. 

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SmilinSam
19 hours ago, Snojetter said:

So that leads me to believe that the 700 frame and the 900 frame would have the same engine mounting holes, but maybe different locations relative to the BGB (hence the need for a different driveshaft)?

(Sam, I know you mentioned to me in a PM several weeks ago that you believe the 900-frames contained holes for both singles and twins.)

Driveshaft length increase is due to the 900 series frames are between 3 and 4 inches longer than the 700 series frames.

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wwbragg
3 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

900 series frames are between 3 and 4 inches longer

You can make up that difference by using the Simplicity 1668637 compression coupler and Simplicity 1669040SM adaptor plate from a 7112 or similar

7112.png

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wwbragg
1 hour ago, GregB said:

rubber coupler is NLA

I have 3 or 4 - - - -acquired to accommodate various transplants.  But even with the adaptor plate, it only measures 2 3/8 inches.

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SmilinSam
10 hours ago, wwbragg said:

You can make up that difference by using the Simplicity 1668637 compression coupler and Simplicity 1669040SM adaptor plate from a 7112 or similar

7112.png

There IS a potential problem with using that coupler and plate without the driveshaft made for that particular coupler.

Look at the poste dparts breakdown carefully. Part 45 is a nylon bushing the presses into the hole in the center of plate #47. The nylon bushing faces the stub on the end of the driveshaft #24. That stub actually fits into the nylon bushing and centers the whole assembly and works to maintain roundness and the integrity of the rubber coupler as it spins..

If you use a regular driveshaft without the stub and attach the rubber coupler to it , it will work....for a period of time. Could be a long time, could be a short time. Eventually the rubber coupler will distort and begin to spin out of round. First you will notice vibration. If you let it go long enough it will take out the input shaft needle bearing on the bevel gear box.

I know from previous experience with this....twice...before I figured out what was happening.

I used to have a chart I made that had all the driveshaft lengths from the various Simplicity /AC tractors. Can no longer find it though....

Another potential problem using the rubber coupler without the right driveshaft is that I dont believe that the 16 vanguards have a real tough bearing(if a real bearing at all) on the flywheel side of the crankshaft. If the rubber coupler distorts  you may lose more than the bevel gearbox.

Edited by SmilinSam

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wwbragg
1 hour ago, SmilinSam said:

a potential problem with using that coupler

Good to know.  My adaptor plates have the nylon bushing in the driveshaft end but I'll have to assure that the driveshaft has the correct stub.

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PhanDad
16 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

There IS a potential problem with using that coupler and plate without the driveshaft made for that particular coupler.

 

16 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

If you use a regular driveshaft without the stub and attach the rubber coupler to it , it will work....for a period of time. Could be a long time, could be a short time. Eventually the rubber coupler will distort and begin to spin out of round. First you will notice vibration. If you let it go long enough it will take out the input shaft needle bearing on the bevel gear box.

Sam, thanks for making the comments.  I've known and warned of the potential for problems, but have never saw a post where it was actually experienced.

A little more detail for those folks that are into details.

The old style adapters have an extension on the rubber coupler side that can't be seen in the IPL above; the extension extends INTO the rubber coupling and the driveshaft nose/adapter connection is INSIDE the rubber coupling.  Some pics:

Adapter_Old_pic1.thumb.jpg.f5e33d3507d021d4573290f847122d7c.jpg

IMG_8327.thumb.JPG.44c41d3b60916cb8e0cd08ad4b3a5fab.JPG

The above driveshaft is for a 7100 series KT17/19; it measures about 17 1/4" outside flange to outside flange.

Many folks are replacing Triads, KT's or other engines in the 7100 series tractors with Commands.  Since the Command driveshaft outside flange to flange dimension is also about 17-1/4", the above KT driveshaft is used with rubber coupler for the repower.   Unfortunately, the driveshaft nose/Command Front Drive adapter connection is OUTSIDE the rubber coupling and the KT17 driveshaft doesn't make contact.  This setup can have the problem Sam described.  Some pics:

Adapter_Command_pic1.thumb.jpg.e840406c94bd23b3bf9461bf52557f69.jpg

IMG_8326.thumb.JPG.82723acfa0157ef71a818d29c9df5733.JPG

 

Edited by PhanDad
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PhanDad
3 hours ago, maxwood said:

Hello, Here is a link to a study on driveshaft lengths and  machine they fit. Done by one of our great members !

@maxwood, thanks for the complement.

@wwbragg, did you use a driveshaft from a 7112 (or other Kohler single cylinder 7100 series)?  If so, do you have the outside flange to outside flange dimension?  Also the "nose" length?  I'll add it to the driveshaft post. 

 

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wwbragg
8 hours ago, PhanDad said:

did you use

I tried several variations but ended up using the 7119 shaft with fiberglass disk.

But you should see my 725 repower.  It has a lovejoy on the BGB end and a 1/2 inch Landlord 2154194 driveshaft isolator spacer on the front.  Originally it had a piece of a tire in the front.

02 original spare tire adaptor.jpg

01 original lovejoy.jpg

725 with Predator and 2154194 Coupling Assembly 01.jpg

Edited by wwbragg

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