Need Purchasing Advice

[Jellyghost]

Hello!

I am getting ready to visit a guy with an AC 416 Hydro.  It has a mower deck, blade and tiller.  The owner got it in a larger deal, and he doesn't know much about it.  He thinks it is only missing belts to run the tiller and mower deck.  I am worried because the tiller is yellow and may have compatibility issues. It appears to be from an earlier generation of tractors.  Does anyone have any advice or want to appraise this tractor?  Any ideas on how to make sure all the important stuff is there?  It runs.  Thanks in advance!!!  I usually only buy Wheel Horse tractors.  My grandfather was a big fan of the AC full size tractors, and it would be nice to have one in his honor.

 

[dhoadley]

The 300 & 400 series A/C tractors are the red-headed step children of the family. The attachments are all unique to these tractors only and not many other parts seem to interchange. He has the tiller attached, so if the pulleys line up, I guess it'll work. I had a 414S that I sold. They're solid but I wasn't looking to be in such a exclusive club. If it runs and the deck is solid, you're fine. If you need donor parts, its tough.

[Jellyghost]

Thanks for the reply!  Are the red heads solid tractors?  Would you venture a value on this?

I like the Wheel Horse tractors because the attachments are almost completely interchangeable after 1973.  I am considering this because it comes with the three most desirable attachments in my mind.  Has anyone created a compatibility chart for attachments and models?

[Chris727]

The tractor still has a Simplicity gearbox and rear axle. Sheet metal is the item that is more unique. The late 400 series shared the same rear lift points as the large frame Simplicity tractors. It would be the mower decks that are not interchangeable. That yellow tiller is a later one 36" and will work on all large frame Simplicity's with a rear lift kit. 

[Jellyghost]

1 hour ago, Chris727 said:

The tractor still has a Simplicity gearbox and rear axle. Sheet metal is the item that is more unique. The late 400 series shared the same rear lift points as the large frame Simplicity tractors. It would be the mower decks that are not interchangeable. That yellow tiller is a later one 36" and will work on all large frame Simplicity's with a rear lift kit. 

Thanks!  Can you tell me some of the large frame models that have the same rear end as the AC 416?  

[Jellyghost]

While digging through old posts, I found someone saying that all Simplicities with a horizontal shaft engine are large frame tractors.  If so, any horizontal shaft from about the same year as the AC 416 should be compatible?  Thank you for everyone's patience while I get schooled.

[tadams]

Welcome to the club, the answer is here for most anything about these tractors just takes the right person to come along with the answer.

Tom

[Chris727]

5 hours ago, Jellyghost said:

Thanks!  Can you tell me some of the large frame models that have the same rear end as the AC 416?  

Most with the horizontal engines but not all. There are bigger tractors with horizontal engines such as the Sunstar, Legacy, and the PowerMax series. The attachments that would interchange would mostly be from the Sovereign series. 

[kwt]

The guts of that tractor are very similar to one of my Homelite t-16H's, with the exception of Kohler/Briggs swap. By the control lever, it appears that you have the Vickers Hydro unit. The front axle is actually stronger than the Sovereigns and has a better tilting joint. Steering gear may be either the weaker early type or the beefy ~75 and later type.

  Tillers mount the same except that you have the "clutch" mounted as part of the tiller, which IMO is good because it can be mounted on literally anything with a wheel on the Bevel gear box and rear lift.

The blade looks like a simplicity. Maybe the mounts were modified. 

I have some deck parts including belt guards and blades if you are interested.

 

Looks rough. $500 and you better be handy. These rigs are great, but they are over 40 yrs. old.

Edited August 22, 2018 by kwt

[Jellyghost]

@kwt Thank you for the great post!  I will send you  a message about the belt guards.

Update:  I looked at it this morning.  He only wants $375, but I passed for now...  The engine is a 16hp kohler from 1987, and it ran great.  I was surprised the tractor was so slow, and neither of us were confident about how the pto for the tiller was activated.  I passed because it seemed over engineered.  The cooling system for the transmission surprised me (I have never owned a hydro before), and the fuel tank was replaced with something that didn't fit quite right.  It also needs all the belt guards, and based upon earlier posts, they seems too hard to find.  I dont' want it to be a show tractor, but I don't want it to be a black hole of tinkering either.

[fishnwiz]

Great choice on holding off. Think about it and wait a bit...getting near the end of cutting season and price should go down. If you don't end up with it, and least you went with your gut feelings.

[kwt]

The tiller belt goes around the left side of the BGB and to the tiller. The top horizontal handle acts as the clutch. Pull towards you and tiller goes. Flip it towards the rear and the belt loosens and tiller stops.

 

As it stands right now, the only thing I use my Allis T16H for is tilling. It's kind of handy not swapping attachments all the time. 3116v for grading, and Simplicity T16H for mowing duties. I haven't decided who is going to blow snow this winter. I know my blower will slip right on the 3116v and maybe the Simp T16H, but the Allis T16H has electric lift.

[brokenwrench]

when using a tiller on the ACs or simplicitys with 3 spd gear drive without a high low gear box or shuttle or hyfdro   you changed the transmission imput pulley  to a larger diameter one i think a 7 inch or a 9 inch and a longer drive belt.

[Jellyghost]

Well.  I bought it today.  I gave him a 10hp Kohler not operating, and he delivered the tractor for $270.  I thought the price was too good to pass up.

There may be something wrong with the transmission.  When I put it in neutral, I can't get it to roll.  The engine runs quieter and smoother than any cast iron Kohler I have owned (it's an 87 replacement), but the tractor is kind of slow.  It's not so slow that I know it's wrong, but It is slower than most mowers.

I now need some belt guards and a drive belt for the mower deck.  I need to patch the original gas tank or find a replacement.  Any suggestions!

Thank you for all of the help.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Jellyghost

[kwt]

38 minutes ago, Jellyghost said:

Well.  I bought it today.  I gave him a 10hp Kohler not operating, and he delivered the tractor for $270.  I thought the price was too good to pass up.

There may be something wrong with the transmission.  When I put it in neutral, I can't get it to roll.  The engine runs quieter and smoother than any cast iron Kohler I have owned (it's an 87 replacement), but the tractor is kind of slow.  It's no so slow that I know it's wrong, but It is slower than most mowers.

I now need some belt guards and a drive belt for the mower deck.  I need to patch the original gas tank or find a replacement.  Any suggestions!

Thank you for all of the help.

 

[kwt]

You know I've got the guards. I don't know if my newish belt would fit or not. The Vickers has a disconnect to the axle in the rear right hand side. It's a lever about 5/16ths around and 7" long that goes up to vertical. If it's not bent, straight up is neutral, and to the left is engaged. Mine works kind of hard so a soft kick with the boot usually shifts it.

 

The slow part is most likely worn linkage ends. For these to work well, all the joints should be tight.

 

 

Pics pics pics! Please.

[Jellyghost]

Here is a pic of the dashboard.  I need t post a pic of the original split gas tank to see if you guys think it is beyond repair.

I would love to buy those guards from you.  Please pm me a price.  

The neutral appears to be right before reverse on the righthand lever.  I will look for that vicker's lever soon. 

How do I learn more about worn linkages?  Garden Tractors are may high dive into the mechanical world.  My handyman skills are all home construction skills, and I am always starting from ground zero with tractors.  It's been great.

[PhanDad]

A pic of the early Vicker's "freewheel" decal with lever partly seen behind the decal:

I would think the Vickers in your tractor would be an early one as shown above.

This is a pic of the decal of the late Vickers which were in Simplicity 3416H's:

Notice the "freewheel" position is opposite (early Vickers, "freewheel" to right, late Vickers, "freewheel" up).

Main difference is, with the early Vickers, when the tranny is in "freewheel", the brake doesn't work; with the newer Vickers, it does.

I've found rocking the tractor when pushing on the lever encourages it to disengage or engage.

 

[Jellyghost]

When you say it has worn linkage ends, is that the type of thing that can be fixed, or is it the type of thing that just needs left alone.

[Chris727]

Congratulations. Looks like you got a fantastic deal on it. The engine alone should be worth as much or more than you paid, plus you got the bonus of the desirable inner wheel weights and a tiller. 

[kwt]

18 hours ago, Jellyghost said:

When you say it has worn linkage ends, is that the type of thing that can be fixed, or is it the type of thing that just needs left alone.

linkages can be fixed. Lift the seat pan and get some pics. It's like another hood that covers the rest of the good stuff.

[gwiseman]

Welcome Clark. Nice tractor and great deal. I always liked the 300-400 series but because of parts interchangeability I never bought one (my shelves are overstocked now). My x-father in law had a 410 that was a beast. 

[Jellyghost]

I have the late Vickers sticker.  I am going to try and shift it.

Does this seat pan pic include the right stuff?

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jellyghost

[BruceH]

You may need to rock the tractor slightly while moving the neutral/drive lever

 

[PhanDad]

57 minutes ago, Jellyghost said:

Does this seat pan pic include the right stuff?

My Homelite Vickers has tin to direct air from fan through hydro oil cooler.  It’s bolted to the top of the cooler and top of fan guard.  

There’s also a triangular plate that has one end of a spring that applies tension to the pntle shaft lever. 

Maybe it’s different on your tractor.  

I’ll post a pic later.