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cwm1276

Dad's 716H

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cwm1276

I started looking at Dad's 716H.  Since he passed I have had it running once or twice, 5 years ago.  It had been a snowblowing only machine for a number of years or to just pull things around the yard.

I finally removed the cab yesterday and started looking at getting it running again.  It has a 16HP briggs in it and I could could get the starter/generator to turn with the battery charger, I am sure the battery is shot and the easiest to fix.  Right now the starter/generator is not spinning right, I guess that might be for sitting for 5 years.

I am hoping to first get it running, ensure things work.  Then I need to fix Dad's wiring, I don't thing the wire nuts belong :).  I know the carb leaks, hence the fuel shut off I added 5 years ago.  I think this engine #3 for the tractor if I remember correctly.  We would mow banks and the splash oil dipper would not lube and we would blow a hole in the block, but that was 30 years ago.  That also helps explain the wiring craziness, as I am sure it was rigged to work vs being done correctly. 

My Dad bought this tractor new in late 70's with mower, tiller and snowblower (still attached).  The deck has a number of rusted holes from 20 years of mowing, the tiller has been on my 7117H for the last 10 years.

I would like to fix the starter/generator and belt as the belt has not been right for 20 years as it needed to held to not slip on the pulleys.  Can I oil the starter or purchase a replacement?

Hopefully then it may want to start and I can clean it up further.  I don't want to really restore it, but I do want it to be right as in correcting wiring and making it reliable. Oh and once running I will fix the seat :) 

It would be handy to have at Mom's to pull a trailer or wagon, or back up my 7117.

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PhanDad

When you say "I could could get the starter/generator to turn with the battery charger", do you mean a "jump box" or just a battery charger?  In my experience, a battery charger doesn't have enough amps for the starter to turn fast enough to start.

If you mean "jump box" didn't you jump the +12v directly to the S/G terminal?  If not, that may be the issue - all the electrical connections look rusty and should be cleaned to ensure a good 12v+ is delivered to the S/G so it has enough power to start the tractor.

As to "oiling" the S/G, it depends on the "bearings"; I believe the S/G's with bearing don't have oiling ports, the one's with bushings do. 

 

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cwm1276

I just had the battery charger connected to the battery, no jump box.  It would spin the starter for a second or two. I did find this site and was intrigued about rebuilding the starter.  http://isavetractors.com/rebuild-kit-for-delco-remy-starter-generators/ of course I would have to double check the model number, if still visible.  

So I will try to clean the existing wiring between the battery and starter and replace the battery.  Once I get starter to spin then I can go further into the engine.

I grew up on that tractor, and see it can still serve multiple purposes, from moving stuff to even still mowing or blowing snow.

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MikeES

The S/G belt is definitely too long.  You are at the full adjustment of the belt tightener slot and it looks like the belt is rubbing on the frame.

I use a 3L380 belt, it just fits and it tucks the S/G up nice and tight to the engine, so it is not hanging out much past the hood.

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PhanDad
14 hours ago, MikeES said:

The S/G belt is definitely too long.  You are at the full adjustment of the belt tightener slot and it looks like the belt is rubbing on the frame.

I use a 3L380 belt, it just fits and it tucks the S/G up nice and tight to the engine, so it is not hanging out much past the hood.

I agree the belt is too long.  

I'm also thinking the tractor should have a Kohler engine, not a Briggs, so I'm suspecting an engine swap.  

Depending on the source of the engine, OEM spec should be either 37.5" or 39.1".  

There were at least two types of S/G mounting brackets used by Simplicity/Homelite/Allis. They positioned the S/G slightly differently and use different length belts. My Homelite T-12 and Allis B-110 use 37.5" belts (#1607323), a Simplicity 3416 uses a 39.1" belt (#157524).    I believe the belt you recommend is 38" which may work for both setups.  

 

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MrSteele

My generator died several years ago, but when the starter windings died, I had to go further. I picked up a new armature at a local starter/generator/alternator shop for around $90. He also had the bearings and brushes. For about $120, I left with the parts, replaced, painted, etc, my starter generator. I think there are some chinese clones available for about that amount of money, as well. You might get lucky. Try a new battery, clean the contacts, and clean the inside of the generator, specifically the end of the armature where the brushes run, the commutator. Clean carefully using sandpaper, not emery cloth, blow it after cleaning with your compressor to get the last of the grit out. If the armature is not shorted, the shop may be able to turn it to do the cleaning job for you

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MikeES
9 hours ago, PhanDad said:

I'm also thinking the tractor should have a Kohler engine, not a Briggs, so I'm suspecting an engine swap.

They are fairly rare but there were a few 716H with Briggs Engines from the factory.  I have a cousin that has one.  And I have seen one more, both are late 70's with ring gear starter Briggs.

 

Edited by MikeES

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cwm1276

It had a Kohler originally. This is engine #3 I think, I was too young to keep track.  Mom and Dad would mow ditches with it and starve the engine for oil.  Engine #2 had a push button start button added, removed with number #3.  We got to the point to park it on a bank and overfill the oil on the right side under the starter generator and then mow those banks.

That helps ensure the wiring is a mess.  I have not looked under the dash, I suspect some "special" wiring in there to make it work.  That also explains the belt, it was something that worked at one point, most likely not the best solution.

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kwt

Pic #4 looks like an indication of leaking head gasket.

 

I know that not everyone has the time skills or tools that I have, (I know plenty with more of all 3 things) but I look at that engine and want to take it out and inspect what I have. Pull the cooling shrouds, head, and oil pan, and the book will be open

Edited by kwt

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cwm1276

I brought it home last weekend and started looking at it this morning.  I think I found the another root of all the oil.  I am guessing the 2 bolt hole on the right should have something in them :) 

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cwm1276

The head came off rather easily.  Looked like it might have been leaking around the lower right of the picture.

Where do might I find a model number on this engine to order a replacement head gasket?  Honestly the old one did not look bad, bit I figure since I am not sure and it is apart it is easiest to replace.  Everything seems rather tight when I turn the crankshaft, I did not do a good inspection of the cylinder wall, but nothing jumped out at me.

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Chris727

Clean the top of the block thoroughly and yes use a new gasket. It appears to have leaked at the rear also unless the oil was just blown to the rear by the air circulation.  I usually surface my cylinder heads on a flat plate and large piece of emery cloth when I have them removed . Seems to help prevent further leaks. 

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Edited by Chris727

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kwt
1 hour ago, Chris727 said:

Clean the top of the block thoroughly and yes use a new gasket. It appears to have leaked at the rear also unless the oil was just blown to the rear by the air circulation.  I usually surface my cylinder heads on a flat plate and large piece of emery cloth when I have them removed . Seems to help prevent further leaks. 

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I don't have a flat plate, but there is a guy 3 miles down the road that will mill it for $20.

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cwm1276

I got the engine out.  This engine has been leaking for a while.  I had 2-3 inches of dirt/grime at the base.

Another place where I suspect oil leakage.  you could hardly see that that fill plug on the top of the crankcase, with oily dirt covering.  We always filled oil using the fitting I removed from the drain, at the bottom of the picture.

Is there something better to do with the fill plug?

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cwm1276

I found the ID number under the starter. 326431 0139-01 7306071.  The head casket pictured at jacks matches my picture above. Seeing it as a '73 engine makes sense, Dad would have put a used engine in it.  So the engine is older than the tractor.

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I have pulled then tin off the flywheel side.  First twisted off screw on the screen of blower.  Next steps keep cleaning, need more cleaner.  I am afraid to take the tin off the side and the muffler, for how rusted they are.

Edited by cwm1276

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cwm1276

Thanks, good catch on belt length.  I have a number of parts on order currently.  I did not order a belt as I figured that would a simple one to purchase locally.  I will measure the old one and compare to new ones.

I hope to clean it more this weekend to remove all the oil and gunk stuck to it.  Then I will see about cleaning the carbon build up on the piston.  

Also just looked up this video and I can jump from my 7117 to test the starter /  generator.  I suspect it is alright as it spun with battery charger as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

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cwm1276

Off to purchase more brake cleaner.  I have most of the engine cleaned up, still have an oily mess around the head to clean up.  I am also working on the tractor frame, as it was completed coated in oil and dirt.

Any suggestions to cleaning the bottom side of the tractor frame?  Without the engine in the tractor, how far do I date to tip it up, to sit on the back hitch? 

I have a pair of car ramps that I think I will use at least to put the front tires on.  That would give me more headroom to clean the underside of the tractor.

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kwt

I've had tractors pretty much vertical. I remove the hood and lift them from the front with an engine crane. You might be able to get a helper to help lift it too.  Relatively light without the engine. Any more, I check the 4 big bolts @ the bevel gear box for tightness while I can get to it easily.

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cwm1276

Awesome, I have the hood off, engine out, battery out, and gas tank out.  I could lift a front tire off the ground by grabbing the frame rather easily.  I just don't want to cause a problem with the hydro, as I am not planning to touch it, other than to maybe change the fluid.

Still waiting on Jacks for some parts I probably should have got elsewhere, and I really am only spending a few hours on the weekend.  I was able to clean up most of the carbon buildup off the piston. 

I need to re-arrange in my garage to get a work space near my 7117 to test the starter generator.  Plus I will need to move things around as the 716 is in between my 7117 and it's snowblower.

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BLT

Do a Google look up in Illinois for starter-generator repair in your area and make sure you tell them starter-generator. Also it is best to have your voltage regulator mated to the generator.

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kwt
13 hours ago, BLT said:

Do a Google look up in Illinois for starter-generator repair in your area and make sure you tell them starter-generator. Also it is best to have your voltage regulator mated to the generator.

Kevin sheepishly and in all humbleness suggests duckduckgo.

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