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Chris727

Input shaft retaining ring, feeling defeated.

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Chris727

Installing a new input shaft in my B-210 BGB. There is a special retaining ring (#2118134SM) that goes in front of the ball bearing and I'm having a heck of a time getting it installed. I searched the archives and read @brokenwrench 's post about BGB tips. Is there a special tool for expanding these rings? At first I installed it on the smaller, driven side of the shaft but could not expand it once I got to the hump in order to get it into the groove. I Decided it would have to be installed from the gear side so that it could slip down into the groove. They are too tight to install by hand. I have a tool but when expanding the ring enough to fit over the shaft they get sprung and don't fit snugly. Also observed the older NOS ones have more of an open groove than the newer ones which have nearly no groove/gap. 

IMG_0043.thumb.JPG.d10fe0367750f75f2fc01946d67a7715.JPG

 

BGB.jpg.56c45bdd26c97a1b2e1f2c5484b25265.jpg

As a last-ditch effort last night, Dad had the idea to try sliding it on over a thin , cone shaped, piece of metal. This worked to get it on the shaft but it sprung the ring such that it didn't fit properly. 

IMG_0055.thumb.JPG.d2ea8cb4cc4102ae6fb0e409d911d7ee.JPG

After that failed installation I looked at my rings and found some older NOS ones had a much wider gap and believed that may allow for easier installation. 

IMG_0056_revized.thumb.jpg.41d70fb10c0e712bf049281050e13db7.jpg

I had been filing the sharp edges off the ring as @PhanDad suggested to prevent damaging the shaft when sliding it in place. 

@brokenwrench had suggested grinding a chamfer on the edge of the shaft as it was originally an abrupt edge. So tonight ground a chamfer on the end of the shaft. I still found I could not get it installed. 

DSCN8918.thumb.JPG.9f2a742e53ec56497a7c4cc0e6b3f435.JPGDSCN8917.thumb.JPG.f64ef4cdca1d6ecc7b1d474d2684ac2d.JPG

Does anyone know of a special tool for these sorts of rings? They are easily sprung and difficult to expand as the cut through them is diagonal, not perpendicular to the ring so the expander wants to slide out. I rebuilt a few of these before but I think I reused the shaft and ring on two of them and only replaced the shaft and ring on one. It was so long ago I don't recall how I got it on but remember it being difficult. Simplicity says to use the bevel gear as the driver. I tried that but no luck either. Maybe I just don't have the knack. 

Thank you for any suggestions. 

 

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PhanDad

With the ring sitting on the chamfer, place the gear over the ring and slowly press the gear onto the shaft using a vice?  

If I were doing this, I'd also want the retaining ring to be tight and not sprung.  

However, in the BGB rebuild video, it appears to me the retaining ring doesn't fit that tight after a "factory" rebuild:

5bace3c1590bb_BGBRetainingRing.JPG.b9153b93ecd30834e9f7c2db5c14b686.JPG

From the parts diagram you posted, the FDT BGB doesn't use a retaining washer to cover the retaining ring as does the newer BGB's.  I'm assuming the "hump" and a recess (or chamfer)  in the inner bearing race serves the same purpose of compressing the ring into the groove.  Did you try assembling with one of the "sprung" retaining rings and see if compresses into the groove?  If I does, I think it'll work OK.  (There has to be some reason for that hump).  

 

Edited by PhanDad
wording

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Chris727

Thank You Bill. We did try one of the slightly sprung ones and it fit loose enough that you can see a tiny bit of daylight between the ring and the shaft. The bearing race is mostly flat where it contacts the ring. The hump is towards the front of the box, away from the bearing. I suppose its purpose was just so the from needle bearing and driveshaft yoke could have a smaller ID while having the larger ID on the gear side as it may take more torsional force. 

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PhanDad

Forget this - Size is different, see below.

If the shaft (where the gear is) is the same 7/8" as the later gearboxes are, can you use the newer box's retaining washer (part #172753) to contain the ring?  Although there might be a problem with the gear mesh being to tight. :(  

 

Edited by PhanDad
Added "Forget this" comment

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PhanDad

Don't know if this will help, but I went to my spare parts storage boxes to look at the bearing and retaining ring spares (early B-110) I bought a few year ago when parts were becoming NLA and/or prices increasing dramatically.  

3 hours ago, Chris727 said:

The bearing race is mostly flat where it contacts the ring.

Is the bearing a "Simplicity" part or an equivalent?  Pics of a Simplicity part #118011 bearing: 

IMG_9750.thumb.JPG.14f7cc72e87176c340357c5810c7b580.JPG

IMG_9751.thumb.JPG.a68d39900223d0c42935dcf3419c5b5a.JPG

IMG_9752.thumb.JPG.9776a0978a915e7d7669a2e4eee50c26.JPG

IMO, the inner race has a significant chamfer.  

Pics with the retaining ring (part #118134 - old dealer stock, not in plastic bag, but could be a newer number) laying in the chamfer:

IMG_9753.thumb.JPG.f5b75d0cda59d092d623fbabe1643e48.JPG

IMG_9754.thumb.JPG.580d0e46e48fcf84cbf67811cd41d4d7.JPG

I'd say about 1/2 the thickness of the ring is below the face of the race - but the ring isn't on a shaft, so it might not sit that far down.  Might you have a wrong bearing?

The bearing is stamped NSK USA 6204.  But might be a special for Simplicity???

And that ring sure is hard to expand; seems much more difficult than a 7/8" shaft retaining ring.

 

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Chris727

Thank you Bill.

I rechecked the bearings and they are the same as the ones you posted. I was going to try the socket trick, went outside to get the 13/16 and 7/8 sockets. When I had returned Dad had already gotten it started on the shaft using his expander (shown in my first picture). I finished driving it on with the 13/16 socket. So it looks like its good now. 

 

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rich_kildow

Those darn rings make me drink at least 3 beers every time I see one, for exactly the reasons you laid out.  I don't even remember what I did last with them on it but I know I hated it.  

In the end I've always gotten them on your way.  Expand them somehow and use a socket.  OR stick them on the end of the shaft with some grease and then drive them on.  Either way I've ended up with stretch rings that won't hold.  The worst was the retaining ring for the Bendix gear on my polaris snowmobile.

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ShaunE
38 minutes ago, rich_kildow said:

The worst was the retaining ring for the Bendix gear on my polaris snowmobile.

Ive squeezed a few of those back closed before as well.

The last one I did, I used a Dremel & cut a portion of the rings off to allow to get my ring expanding pliers in the opening.  Also the expanding pliers I have has two small indentations for the ring to stay in without flying across the room.

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rich_kildow

I tried that and eventually sourced an appropriate replacement ring locally.  After losing a few into the bowels of the snowmobile and chasing the bendix gear more than I like to admin, I finally got one that stayed.  

  • Haha 1

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