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GWGAllisfan

Re-engine project

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GWGAllisfan

I have a new project. I need some advice on what further parts to accumulate to put the cub cadet CH18s in a 7112.

I Know I need to trim the frame, and there has to be some wiring issues. I’m sure the command is magneto ground to stop, so have to rework to that.

What are the drive line issues? What about mounting holes and oil drains? 

Pictures of engine:

 

ECAEA816-0474-46F9-BABA-0379FDBE63A3.jpeg

3865FAA0-E5F6-4906-9548-EFCCC42D3041.jpeg

DC3C1CC7-37CF-4164-AFD9-DE4A73786A7A.jpeg

D9497365-48E2-4D23-AE01-36A846F6C1F3.jpeg

Edited by GWGAllisfan
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PhanDad

See Al's instruction for a Command install in a 7100 tractor:

https://simpletractors.com/files/file/56-repower-instructions-of-900-7100-tractor/

And you can also use some of what I documented for a Triad replacement with a Command:

https://simpletractors.com/articles.html/articles/engine-repair-rebuilding/kohler-triad-replacement-command-r12/

It gives part numbers and also shows how to convert your Cub engine into a "Simplicity" Spec engine.

 

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Bill725

To add to Bill's post above, you basically want to convert a CH18-62599 to a CH18-62513, which is the spec number for the Command in the late model Sovereigns. This can be done by comparing the IPLs. After comparing the IPLs, I think you will find you need the following Kohler P/N's:

24 029 09-S Flywheel to Driveshaft Adapter and screws

24 755 253-S Fan

24 027 488-S Blower Housing (for chopper screen)

24 162 21-S Screen-Chopper (with hole for driveshaft adapter)

24 755 79-S Screen Kit (mounting hardware)

24 176 40-S Engine Wiring Harness

You may need to change the spade connectors and holder at the end of the tractor wire harness to mate to the engine harness. If so, PM me, as I have those P/N's also.

If you need more info in regards to driveshaft selection and connection, reply back and we can help.

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PhanDad
10 hours ago, Bill725 said:

I thnk you will find you need the following Kohler P/N's:

24 755 253-S Fan

I’ve converted 2 Commands to “Simplicity” spec and never thought the fan needed to be changed, it appeared to fit the replacement “chopper” blower housing fine.  

What am I missing?

 

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Bill725

Bill,

I converted a CH18 with a plastic screen that attached to the fan to the chopper screen and had to purchase a new fan, which is the part number stated above. I suggest checking the IPL for the CH18-62599 against the part numbers I stated above and only purchase to ones that are different.

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Brettw

I'm not sure the CH18 is in spec with the IPL, as the *** say's we have a problem.  Then you take the IMHO and add the CYA, and you get all ***'ed.  I personally think, if you have an ISP and you think you have a verified answer, IIRC, you can then apply this information to your PAH, and then apply the information to your best practices to realize a postive outcome.  Hopefully this does not hurt your EBITA, or, you will be broke and SOL. Just sayin'..............

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GWGAllisfan

OK, so I’ve got a little confusion here.

The wire screen and chopper housing is better than the plastic one in that it only passes smaller pieces that blow through easier? This is more important on the V-twins because the path is less straight than the one on the KT flat twins?

Also, the Al Eden instructions show the need for new frame holes and a relocated oil drain, and it looked like the engine is further back in the frame, plus it uses a regular flex disk and flat ended drive shaft.

Does anyone have a command frame they can make a drawing or template of so I can get the holes in the right spot?

The pictures and article from the triad conversion, seem to indicate the frame oil drain is either relocated or the engine set further forward. In addition the nosed drive shaft is needed.

I have from the old K-series set-up, a driveshaft with a nose, but it goes in a rubber biscuit, that went between the drive shaft and the engine. The engine drive adapter bolted to a little Hat-shaped piece that was between this rubber disk and the driveshaft.

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PhanDad
On 10/25/2018 at 7:34 AM, GWGAllisfan said:

The wire screen and chopper housing is better than the plastic one in that it only passes smaller pieces that blow through easier?

I would say yes.  The first pics in my Triad to Command post shows the mowing deck debris packed into the engine.  The Simplicity decks blow a lot of debris forward which covers the top of the mower deck and hence sucked into the engine by the cooling fans.  BTW - FDT tractors had a solid frame bottom and don't have the issue as much.

On 10/25/2018 at 7:34 AM, GWGAllisfan said:

Also, the Al Eden instructions show the need for new frame holes and a relocated oil drain, and it looked like the engine is further back in the frame

 

On 10/25/2018 at 7:34 AM, GWGAllisfan said:

The pictures and article from the triad conversion, seem to indicate the frame oil drain is either relocated or the engine set further forward.

The front part of the frame of the 7100 series tractors is different from the newer "Sovereign" (Sov18, 75th Ann, etc), hence the oil drain location differences. 

On 10/25/2018 at 7:34 AM, GWGAllisfan said:

Al Eden instructions... plus it uses a regular flex disk and flat ended drive shaft.

 

On 10/25/2018 at 7:34 AM, GWGAllisfan said:

In addition the nosed drive shaft is needed.

The early 7100 series tractors came with a longer driveshaft and fiberglass coupler;  the later model 7100's came with a shorter driveshaft with "nose" and rubber coupler.  The Command powered Sov18's, etc used a longer "nose" driveshaft and rubber coupler while the Triad powered Sov18's, etc used "non-nose" driveshafts and fiberglass coupler.  

The rubber coupler has much less stiffness (long torsional length between faces) and I believe that's why the "nose"/engine adapter are used for driveshaft centering.  Unfortunately, the engine adapters are different and require different length "noses" (The older adapters slide into the rubber coupler and the "nose" engages the adapter inside the rubber coupler; the Command adapter is flush with the rubber coupler and the "nose" engages the adapter outside of the rubber coupler, hence the longer "nose").  

IMO, the fiberglass coupler is better long term setup than using the rubber coupler without the proper length "nose".  Here's a post where this issue is discussed (about half-way down):

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/61243-briggs-vanguard-transplant/?tab=comments#comment-488855

 

  

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GWGAllisfan

Even more confused, but Maybe it will make sense when I set it all in there. I still have to buy all the conversion parts.

It had a K301, and a K321, and a K341. I looked and looked for a replacement of those simple bolt ins but never found one.

 

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PhanDad
On 10/21/2018 at 7:08 PM, Bill725 said:

I converted a CH18 with a plastic screen that attached to the fan to the chopper screen and had to purchase a new fan, which is the part number stated above.

My first conversion engine also had a plastic screen that attached to the fan with nubs molded into the plastic fan as can be seen in this pic:

IMG_4698.thumb.jpg.a1f358c20b5cc3b3cc9fdfbd9a0ad68d.jpg

And the second conversion engine (an NOS Simplicity SunStar spec engine) also had a fan with mounting nubs (no screen for the SunStar spec):

IMG_8336.thumb.JPG.6ae818aeaecedefd64e995686deed202.JPG

In both conversions, since the chopper screen is mounted on extensions that are set in the fan mounting bolt holes and the "bow" in the screen cleared the mounting nubs,  I didn't replace find it necessary to replace the fan.

When I just looked at the SunStar engine pics I was surprised to see the nubs on the fan; was the replacement fan you bought "nub-less"?

 

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, GWGAllisfan said:

I still have to buy all the conversion parts.

Keep an eye on eBay for used parts; I picked up a chopper blower housing for $20 a few years back. 

A chopper blower housing is available now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blower-housing-cover-Kohler-Command-PRO-CV18-18-HP-engine-R2E/273361587496?hash=item3fa59ecd28:g:wLgAAOSwAFNbTluL:rk:16:pf:0

And an older style chopper screen with mounting ring and bolts:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kohler-Command-Pro-26-CV26-Flywheel-Screen-Bolts/173602627496?hash=item286b85dfa8:g:pasAAOSwaXpbzkkN:sc:USPSFirstClass!19047!US!-1:rk:10:pf:0

Or newer style chopper screen mounting hardware with fan:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kohler-Command-V-Twin-CV20S-FAN-AND-SCREEN/282994010918?hash=item41e3c1eb26:g:N~oAAOSwUwlbFJh9:rk:15:pf:0

In both of the above you'll have to cut the adapter hole into the screen (make sure the bolt hole orientation is correct).

 

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GWGAllisfan

Pushing this back up. It applies to my current project.

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/64460-engineless-7119/

what I’m curious about is if I can turn the old adapter around and just shim the driveline to make it work. Or does this make it all too long by the width of the 1669040 plate?

 In the Eden instructions there is a mounting plate for hole drilling. Is this only a template, or is it meant to raise the crank centerline. I thought Briggs cast iron, Kohler K, and Kohler KT all had the same crank height.

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PhanDad
2 hours ago, GWGAllisfan said:

what I’m curious about is if I can turn the old adapter around and just shim the driveline to make it work. Or does this make it all too long by the width of the 1669040 plate?

Interesting idea.  I think "1669040" is the old Kohler adapter for the rubber coupler.  In the case of the newer Sovereign frames where the Command bolt holes are already there, I think you're correct - the drive line would be too long by the thickness of the adapter.  I don't think the length adjustment at the BGB end would be enough to solve the problem.  

But on a 7100 series tractor, you have to drill holes in the frame, so maybe they could be moved forward to accommodate your idea.  Muffler interference with the hood could be an issue.  (What muffler to use is another story).

I'd bolt the driveline all together (Kohler drive adapter/rubber coupler/KT driveshaft), install it into tractor with the BGB yoke loose and slidable,  then set the Command with drive adapter installed into the tractor and see how it all fits.   

Hopefully it'll work.  

2 hours ago, GWGAllisfan said:

In the Eden instructions there is a mounting plate for hole drilling. Is this only a template, or is it meant to raise the crank centerline. I thought Briggs cast iron, Kohler K, and Kohler KT all had the same crank height.

The Eden supplied mounting plate must be just a hole drilling template.  Only the Triad and popular Predator engines need a mounting plate to raise the crank height.  The Command has the same crank height as all the previous OEM Simplicity engines (Kohler and Briggs).  

 

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PhanDad

Looking again at the pic of the flywheel side of the engine:

3865FAA0-E5F6-4906-9548-EFCCC42D3041.jpeg

There appears to be some type of front adapter already installed.  I assume it comes off, otherwise the driveline discussed above will be longer yet by the thickness of the already installed adapter.  

Also appears the inlet screen is bolted to the flywheel with the standoff spacers/bolts used for the chopper screen.  If so, one less item to acquire for installation of a chopper screen.  

 

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GWGAllisfan

Well after an afternoon of working with this engine and tractor, I have resolved some issues, found some mysteries and have to make some decisions.

The cub adapter unbolted, so the way is clear to use the kohler one. I have been able to determine the proper wires to connect for crank, run, etc. the cuc oil drain is on the wrong side and some weird push and twist thing, so I either need to buy the right drain valve, or play games with 3/8” pipe fittings.

a mystery is why there is a length of fuel line connected to a port on the intake manifold. That’s a vacuum source, put it should be steady, not pulsed like the fuel pump needs. No idea why it’s there though. Maybe that elbow and the fitting for the crankcase will have the same thread and I can swap them. Anyone know if that is metric or NPT?

 I was able to make a template for drilling the frame from a original command powered unit , so now I know where the holes go.

the biggest decision is about the drive line. The parts I have end up an inch or so too long. I can either pull the engine forward, which will make the muffler problem worse, or buy a proper command driveshaft, (1708729 I think $$). My original fall back was going to be using the short drive adapter like for k singles, then shimming around a 1/2” on each BGB connection, but though it fits, it is 2” shorter and ends up behind the screen, so no.

 I guess one more option is to see if I have a regular driveshaft around 20 long and just skip the rubber coupler

oh well it’s just more thought time...

 

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PhanDad
2 hours ago, GWGAllisfan said:

a mystery is why there is a length of fuel line connected to a port on the intake manifold

Connected to a manifold pressure gauge?  Puller engine maybe?

 

2 hours ago, GWGAllisfan said:

Maybe that elbow and the fitting for the crankcase will have the same thread and I can swap them. Anyone know if that is metric or NPT?

When I converted from mechanical pump to pulse I remember checking out the crankcase port on the engine face.  It didn't seem to be NPT; had no way of knowing if it is metric.  Bought the Kohler part (#2515502) to avoid potential hole damage: it's available at OPE Engines:

https://www.kohler-engine-parts.opeengines.com/kohler-ignition-parts-other-electrical-parts-c-781_80_517/kohler-part-2515502s-connector-p-2983

kohleropewm_elbow_2515502S.jpg.178acf8dffb1acb220a871c8a9f00cfe.jpg

Not much of a taper.  Hopefully the one you have will work.  

 

Edited by PhanDad
fixed pic

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GWGAllisfan

That looks like the one I took out. Of course I can’t get to any known 1/8” pipe fittings because of the stuff in the way.

 

Intake manifold vacuum wouldn’t pulse. Doesn’t crankcase vacuum pulse and that’s how the pump works.

Of course it gets better, since both the plugs on the crankcase are so tight my Allen wrench won’t grip them. I’ve got them soaking in penetrating lube, and may try gentle heat. Left hand drill bit is last hope.

and thanks  for the advice....

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PhanDad
24 minutes ago, GWGAllisfan said:

Intake manifold vacuum wouldn’t pulse. Doesn’t crankcase vacuum pulse and that’s how the pump works.

I believe you are correct.  A pulse pump must be connected to crankcase.  

25 minutes ago, GWGAllisfan said:

Of course it gets better, since both the plugs on the crankcase are so tight my Allen wrench won’t grip them.

This is the stock location that Kohler uses for an OEM pulse pump install:

IMG_4672a.thumb.jpg.5589930b01ca9b70a78e2c9cf0683433.jpg

I'm pretty sure it's a metric hex not a standard US hex.  I've done two pulse pump conversions (one NOS and the other installed in tractor for a couple years - above pic is from that engine) and don't remember having difficulty removing the plugs with the "standard" L shaped hex wrenches.  I have US hex "stubs" that I can use with a socket set, but I don't have a metric set.  

 

 

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GWGAllisfan
4 minutes ago, PhanDad said:

I believe you are correct.  A pulse pump must be connected to crankcase.  

This is the stock location that Kohler uses for an OEM pulse pump install:

IMG_4672a.thumb.jpg.5589930b01ca9b70a78e2c9cf0683433.jpg

I'm pretty sure it's a metric hex not a standard US hex.  I've done two pulse pump conversions (one NOS and the other installed in tractor for a couple years - above pic is from that engine) and don't remember having difficulty removing the plugs with the "standard" L shaped hex wrenches.  I have US hex "stubs" that I can use with a socket set, but I don't have a metric set.  

 

 

Great.....it was already rounded out when it got here....now to go buy or borrow metric hex key set.... 

probably some kind of metric pipe thread, too.....

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GWGAllisfan

Well a little more penetrating oil, some heat and really making sure the Allen wrench is seated, then sharp hammer impact and: 

7ADCB6CC-58D5-450C-AB9A-B7BA28E3AA60.jpeg

The engine has the drive adapter on and just waiting for screen to come in:7E9D1E35-C7AC-4294-AC26-F9225D68F1E0.jpeg

Have to find the right screws to mount fuel pump. I guess I’ll get some m5 or m6 thread formers. Maybe 1/4 or #14 might work.

Oil cap is on the way. Need to figure how to fill oil cooler hole for now. Probably can slide something in the hole.

 

75A650D8-E675-4294-ACA3-EAA0144A8740.jpeg

I had it set in the tractor to check and it looks like everything is lining up. Have to move oil drain to other side. 

 I really need something better than me picking it up. It gets heavy.

exhaust is going to be a problem.still thinking on that.

 

Edited by GWGAllisfan
Move text to pictures
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PhanDad
On 5/31/2020 at 7:29 AM, GWGAllisfan said:

the biggest decision is about the drive line. The parts I have end up an inch or so too long. I can either pull the engine forward, which will make the muffler problem worse, or buy a proper command driveshaft, (1708729 I think $$).

Looks like a Command long nose drive shaft at the bottom left of this "for sale" parts pile:

91698142_2998404646887920_20063617600716

Maybe the seller will deal and ship.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1436546169860961/

 

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Alltractoredup

Talk about hoarding a bunch of parts.  I would definitely have that much if I kept all my parts from over the years

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