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ac.d17iv

Snowblower plugging

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ac.d17iv

I have an AC 712H with front PTO, two pulley hitch and 36" simplicity snowblower.  This is the first year that I've really tested it out.  We've had two storms already this year, both with wet heavy snow.  I know this presents challenges for snow blowers to plug, but even my little toro single stage snow blower will handle the snow without plugging.  My 36" plugs almost instantly.  I have a new belt and the blower appears to be working fine.  I've tried the tricks outlined on the forum, sprayed PAM on the inside, took small paths at a time, etc.  What happens when it plugs is the belt won't spin, nor the engine bog down too much, but rather the belt just stops.  So I shut off PTO and have to unplug all the time.

The only thing I haven't tried is a new spring on the hitch.  Any thoughts if that would help?  Any other ideas?

Thanks  

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GregB

Is the chute rusty?  New clean coat of paint might help if it is.

There are also coatings besides PAM to use, made to add slip to chutes and stuff like that in industry etc.

Is it running the right size pulley, size changed depending on what tractor they were for originally.

 

Hopefully others will chime in also

Edited by GregB

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joelk

It sounds to me like the belt is not the correct size or really worn.  If the belt stops, you should have a noticeable lug in the engine.  When my belt gets really worn, the belt will smoke like crazy and get burning hot if it stops moving.

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PhanDad

I plug occasionally with wet snow, but it's always that I've overloaded the blower and the engine's bogging down.  If I slow down or stop in time, it'll clear. 

The issue is wet snow will tend to "plow" forward rather than enter the auger; when it does, it comes to fast leading to engine bog.  It's especially troublesome with a driveway that's well seal coated and is slick with that thin layer of slushy  snow/ice at the driveway surface.  

I agree with the responses above.  Somethings not right with the setup.  It could also be worn pulley(s) - if the belt is bottoming out, it can't pull.  

Could be the front PTO clutch lining as suggested above.  When the belt's "stopped" is the front PTO pulley turning?  

 

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MikeES

The snowthrower will put more load on the engine than any other attachment...so if you are not loading up the engine then you must have slippage in the drive to the snow thrower like mentioned above.

I have a 42" on my  917 with a 20hp magnum, and heavy wet snow will stand that 20hp on its ear.   BTW I have never plugged the thrower even throwing pure slush, with the 20hp, but have with a 12hp. 

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Brettw
58 minutes ago, MikeES said:

The snowthrower will put more load on the engine than any other attachment...so if you are not loading up the engine then you must have slippage in the drive to the snow thrower like mentioned above.

Totally agree.  And the key to these single stage blowers, regardless of size or horsepower, is to keep them fed.  Keep enough snow going into and through them to keep the governor letting you know it's working it.  Easier said than done if you aren't using a hydro where you can vary the speed easily and quickly.  If you can keep the snow moving through them they rarely plug.  And when they do, I run it into a bank of snow to "force" the plug out.  If they plug and the engine isn't grunting up to that point, it is almost certainly a drive issue.  My Magnum 18 will snort away big time, and only once has the snow/slush issue been to the point of smoking a belt; an old belt.  Your issue definitely sounds like loose belt, worn pulley, worn clutch or combination thereof. 

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kwt
15 hours ago, ac.d17iv said:

I have an AC 712H with front PTO, two pulley hitch and 36" simplicity snowblower.  I have a new belt and the blower appears to be working fine.    What happens when it plugs is the belt won't spin, nor the engine bog down too much, but rather the belt just stops.  So I shut off PTO and have to unplug all the time.

The only thing I haven't tried is a new spring on the hitch.  Any thoughts if that would help?  Any other ideas?

Thanks  

I would like to see pics. We all would. Pics of the pulleys and the belt.

 

I'm not your daddy, but I strongly suggest that you TURN OFF THE ENGINE when messing with a plugged snow thrower chute or deck or...  Life is better without your body having damaged pieces/parts. Bummer for me that I know this from first hand experience.

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Chuck Mallory 917

Pam is an oil that thickens in the cold.  Dupont makes a product for snowblowers to spray in the chute, and on snow shovels.  It contains teflon, and I also use it under the wheel wells on my car to keep the snudge from forming big ice glops in the wheel wells.

It's called, Dupont Snow and Ice Repellent- available on amazon.  I got two can for around $9 and change- free shipping with Prime.

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ac.d17iv

Thanks all for the feedback. 

 

The belt is a new simplicity. I can smell some burning when it plugs. The front PTO was NOS when I installed, so don’t think that is the problem. 

 

The hitch was an an old one I bought. Would it help to replace the tension spring on it?

 

Attached are pics of setup. 

 

Thanks!

F6F95E3B-C0D4-4D7D-8925-108CB4E3DD44.jpeg

791F764A-0D59-4C8C-9FE2-50FF1F45B4D3.jpeg

67C8F9E0-B6EA-4E41-924A-425BF4F64C80.jpeg

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, ac.d17iv said:

Would it help to replace the tension spring on it?

I wouldn't think so; unless it's broken or not correct, springs usually do there thing.  Here's a pic of a two pulley hitch with (I believe) the correct spring:

New_HItch_0008.jpg.c4df01327d05123a7b1f029e70ab39af.jpg

You could adjust the eye-bolt to give more tension if you think it needs more.  

But another thing I'd check is the diameter of the driven pulley on the snowblower.  The OEM pulley diameter for a RBT snowblower is 7".  If someone changed the pulley to a smaller one (a common change to increase the rotation speed), then you should use a shorter belt to make up for the smaller diameter pulley.  How close to the end of travel on the spring loaded pulley is your setup?

If you're using a FDT snowblower head, the OEM driven pulley is 5-1/4" - I would think the hitch would be bottomed out.  

 

 

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rockfangd

By chance have you greased and inspected the blower assembly lately?

It almost sounds like there is some resistance to begin with and the heavy snow overcomes and stops it from spinning.

Typically if the unit will just spin and throw snow but just wont come out of the chute if plugged.

And keeping it working is a key that helps keep it from plugging. It keeps the engine working hard enough and keeps the snow moving. Slow means sticking.

I usually recommend greasing and lubricating the chain regularly

 

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JohnMBerst

Just to note to run a WOT to keep auger speed up as high as possible.

Spraying chute, and auger housing as noted.  Keep loaded a a steady pace.

I also let the blower house "cool" outside to keep ice from forming, if parked opr starting from warmer storage.  

Once had the blower "eat" a phone book left besides the neighbors mail box, and stopped the engine solid, quickly from WOT.

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ac.d17iv

The 36” snowblower came off a non RBT. Came with a two pulley hitch that goes under the tractor. I’m guessing like a 600/800 (811gt) series AC. I had to move the tabs on the snowblower from the inside to the outside so the proper hitch would connect. 

The drive pulley on the snowblower appears to be the 5 1/4 size. So if that isn’t standard for my RBT, perhaps that is the problem?  I need a different belt?

The model # for my snowblower is 1690169. 

Thanks

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PhanDad
3 hours ago, ac.d17iv said:

perhaps that is the problem?  I need a different belt?

Most likely. 

Besides the driven pulley being smaller, the FDT tunnel is different - I know the largest driven pulley that will fit is 6-1/2", but I don't remember if the length from the driven pulley shaft to the mounting pins is different from a RBT tunnel.

The best way to find the belt you need is to take a piece of 3/8" rope and run it around the your setup.  Have the spring loaded pulley at mid-range and then measure the length.  

Then buy the required belt at a store that will let you return it if it's not the correct size.  

 

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ac.d17iv

Assuming I get the correct belt, should I stay with the smaller pulley?  Or would it be better to put a larger pulley on?

I thought all the snowblower heads were the same, so when I bought this 36” didn’t realize this would be an issue. Did the 36” for RBT come with a 7” pulley?

 Thanks 

Edited by ac.d17iv

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, ac.d17iv said:

Did the 36” for RBT come with a 7” pulley?

Yes, 7" is the OEM size for a RBT snowblower head.

1 hour ago, ac.d17iv said:

should I stay with the smaller pulley?  Or would it be better to put a larger pulley on?

Personable preference.  Many have changed the driven pulley so the auger spins faster and throws snow farther.  

I did a bunch of calculations years ago because I thought the OEM RBT setup spun the auger slower.  Rather than using the ratio of pulley diameters, I measured the "belt wrap" of various pulleys (including the OEM driver pulleys) to get more accurate calculations (How far down the belt sits in the pulley determines the "effective diameter"  For example two, 6" diameter Phoenix supplied pulleys: narrow style = 18-7/8" belt wrap while the Wide Style = 17-7/16".

NOTE: My calculations didn't take into consideration the speed reduction from the chain driven sprocket difference. 

Here's the results for Snowblower Driven Shaft RPM/Engine RPM:

Simplicity OEM FDT setup:   0.866

Simplicity OEM Center PTO RBT setup:   0.752  (13% slower than FDT OEM setup)

Homelite OEM Front Electric PTO setup:  .786  (9% slower than FDT OEM setup)

I never measured a Simplicity Mechanical front PTO but I believe it to be similar to the Homelite PTO.

Some more calculations with different sized pulleys using the Simplicity OEM Center PTO RBT setup as the reference:

Simplicity 6-1/2" pulley:  0.815 (8.4% faster)

Phoenix 6" wide pulley:  0.871 (15.8% faster & closest match to OEM FDT setup)

Phoenix 5-1/2: wide pulley: 0.949  (26.2% faster)

OEM FDT 5-1/4" Pulley:  1.021  (35.7% faster)

So, what's the conclusion?

IMO, using the OEM FDT pulley spins the auger too fast but other's do it.  My choice is a 6" pulley.

 

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Ronald Hribar

1. Make sure motor is turning 3600 rpm

2. Run it wide open

3. Sand inside of chute  No rust allowed

4.Wax inside of chute

5.belt has to be tight

6. Make sure clutch does not slip

7 keep blower full. You should hear governor kick in

and let blower throw snow as far as possible

if you have it depositing snow along side of blower

you are looking for trouble

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TimJr

Doing some quick checking in parts references, I have some questions/comments.  I need to go measure the pullies on a couple of my blowers to see.  My research isn't completely thorough, but I stabbed at enough 36 and 42" blowers for lawn tractors and garden tractors to get a pretty solid basis.

It looks like all of the modern style blowers, with the square sides (except for the first generation 990564 for FDT tractors in the 1960's) all use the same input drive pulley part number 171248, which is now 2171248SM.  Simplicity parts info conflicts itself on diameter.  One place says it is 7", but another says 5.6" OD.

The blower 1690169 mentioned above was from the mid - late 1970's and fit the 4000/6000 series tractors.  As far as I know, swapping hitches was all that would be needed to put it under a garden tractor, and yes the tabs would get repositioned for wider garden tractor hitch.

I pulled a blower off a 4212 years ago and just swapped hitches after moving the tabs and put it under my 1997 18hp Sovereign.  I used the proper belt, no measuring, parts swapping or rigging.

In the 80's up to at least 2000 (when the 7100 style chassis ended), Simplicity did use the same blower head for all belt driven applications, they just changed the hitches and the belt.  You bought the blower and hitch separate.  In the 70's it looks like the mfg. # got you the blower and the hitch.  

I don't have a front PTO readily accessible, but isn't the pulley diameter of a front PTO larger than the OD of the cone clutch on a 7100 BGB?  From memory it just seemed larger.

Obviously a blower from the 60's off an FDT would have a different input pulley - those used a fairly small OD pulley on the crankshaft.

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PhanDad
15 hours ago, TimJr said:

It looks like all of the modern style blowers, with the square sides (except for the first generation 990564 for FDT tractors in the 1960's) all use the same input drive pulley part number 171248, which is now 2171248SM.  Simplicity parts info conflicts itself on diameter.  One place says it is 7", but another says 5.6" OD.

I agree; it's a 7" diameter pulley.  The 5.6" dimension is wrong.

 

15 hours ago, TimJr said:

The blower 1690169 mentioned above was from the mid - late 1970's and fit the 4000/6000 series tractors.  As far as I know, swapping hitches was all that would be needed to put it under a garden tractor, and yes the tabs would get repositioned for wider garden tractor hitch.

I agree;  I didn't check the IPL for the mfg#, I took his statement that it was a FDT snowblower.  

 

15 hours ago, TimJr said:

I pulled a blower off a 4212 years ago and just swapped hitches after moving the tabs and put it under my 1997 18hp Sovereign.  I used the proper belt, no measuring, parts swapping or rigging.

I agree - IF the driven pulley hasn't been changed and it's the OEM 7" pulley. 

 

On 12/8/2018 at 9:13 AM, ac.d17iv said:

The drive pulley on the snowblower appears to be the 5 1/4 size.

I've bought several "RBT" snowblowers over the years where the driven pulley was not OEM (I wanted the heads, since as you state, they are all the same for RBTs, small frames included to the best of my knowledge). 

A measurement is needed.  It's possible his snowblower had the pulley swapped out so it could be used on a FDT.  Or PO wanted higher auger speed.

 

15 hours ago, TimJr said:

I don't have a front PTO readily accessible, but isn't the pulley diameter of a front PTO larger than the OD of the cone clutch on a 7100 BGB?  From memory it just seemed larger.

I had a mechanical front PTO at one time, but sold it and I never measured it.  Since it drove the RTB snowblower, I would think the "effective diameter" (where the belt lays in the pulley) would be similar to the mid cone clutch pulley on the 7100 and newer "Sovereign" tractors.  

Here's what I measured (effective diameter based on belt wrap):

7100 Mid PTO outside diameter 5-1/8" (hard to measure well)

7100 Mid PTO effective diameter 4.834"

Homelite Electric Front PTO outside diameter 5-3/4" (belt sits much deeper that mid PTO)

Homelite Electric Front PTO effective diameter 5.053"

RBT Snowblower Driven Pulley outside diameter 7"

RBT Snowblower Driven Pulley effective diameter 6.426"

 

FDT Crankshaft Fixed Pulley outside diameter 4-3/8"

FDT Crankshaft Fixed Pulley effective diameter 4.098"

FDT Snowblower Driven Pulley outside diameter 5-1/4"

FDT Snowblower Driven Pulley effective diameter 4.735"

 

Edited by PhanDad
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Brettw
On 12/9/2018 at 11:05 AM, PhanDad said:

should I stay with the smaller pulley?  Or would it be better to put a larger pulley on?

I can say this, if you are smoking / slipping belts and having trouble with plugged chutes that may be part of your problem.  Trying to drive the smaller pulley will put additional strain on the setup.  You would be turning the auger faster, but you are asking a lot more out of the engine and drive setup.  Think of it like a worn clutch, you might get the car to move in 1st gear, but in 4th it just doesn't have enough bite to offset the resistance.

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