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rockfangd

7116H Fluids

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rockfangd

Hi All. Merry Christmas.

I have been looking for the correct fluids for my 7116H

Fluids are for the hydrostatic transmission and the Bevel  Gear box.

I cannot seem to get a straight answer and do not want to put the wrong stuff in there. I have heard hydraulic oil in one and hydraulic fluid in the other...

I have some hydraulic fluid but am not sure which one.

 If someone can please give me the info on this I would highly appreciate it. 

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ShaunE

HA!

This question is "similar" to the "what engine oil do I use?" question....

You could end up with 47 pages of more scientific facts than there are scientific facts LOL.

Yes the manual says to use the same in both and that is fine.  

It also says the BGB holds 16oz.  I have never been able to get that much in there without it being what I consider "Too Full".

I use the Simplicity Multi-Purpose Hydraulic/Transmission Oil in the transmission & 80W-90W gear lube in the BGB.

IMG_1962.JPG

IMG_1963.JPG

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PhanDad

Yup, lots of choices depending on how old and what manual you read.

IMO, it’s best to use whatever is in it unless you do a drain/flush so you don’t have a mixture of fluids.  I may be anal, but that’s what I was taught many years ago and it makes sense to me.

As best I know, the older tractor BGBs had 90wt gear oil in them while the newer tractors had the “multipurpose” oil shown above.  The old Vickers hydro units came with red Dexron auto transmission fluid.  Not sure what the early Sundstrands used, but the later ones came with the “multipurpose” oil.  I don’t remember what the manual trannys (3 spds) came with (gear oil??).  

If you switch a gear oil BGB to ATF, there’s the “old wisdom” that the seals may leak due to the higher detergent level in ATFs.

I personally run the “multipurpose” oil in everything except my oldest tractors which both have Vickers hydros running Dextron and BGBs using 90 wt gear oil.

Enjoy the fluid buffet.  

 

Edited by PhanDad
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rockfangd

So as long as I can run the same in both I will do that.

I know the fluids are pinkish in color. 

I have a tiny leak somewhere as occasionally I see a drop of it on the ground. 

I will have to order the hydro filter which is not cheap. Cha ching for a small filter

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Kenh

I have a 7116H and a 7119H,  I run 80W90 in the BGB and universal hydraulic/trans fluid in the hydro stat.  So far I've not had any issues.   80W90 for me in the BGB is a no brainier as it is nothing but gears and bearings just a differential.  I feel it gives gears a little more protection.

 

Ken

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wwbragg

I had to replace the clutch on a 91 Ford Ranger.  When I drained the tranny, I found it full of ATF (yeah, in a manual tranny).  I was expecting 90 weight gear lube so I did some research.  ATF was used because it is more fluid and causes less drag, thus improving gas mileage.  Somewhere I read that you can use either but once you go from ATF to 90 weight, you should not go back.  The speed/mileage issue is not a problem with these tractors so 90 weight makes a lot of sense in the BGB.  But the hydrostatic trans relies on oil flow to move the internals and so hydraulic fluid or ATF is a must.

PS: So if your BGB is filled with 90 weight, don't switch back to ATF.

Edited by wwbragg
PS
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PhanDad

@wwbragg instruction above are for older tractors.

The newer tractors, including the 75th Ann tractors have the fill/check port on the top of the BGB as can be seen in these pics:

BGB_Inst.JPG.00fc317ec34cedd1f6107be8ee03d4a0.JPG

IMG_9469.thumb.JPG.c782b34cb96c62570267f4734f49764f.JPG

I believe the "check instructions" are from the operators manual.

And here's a list of maintenance info showing multipurpose fluid is used in both BGB & Tranny (last item):

BGB_Fluid.JPG.59a49a721cba8d286c421df54d39b0de.JPG 

 

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wwbragg
1 hour ago, LMichaels said:

instant death

Not to worry - -  ATF is more slippery but like I said, if you have been using gear lube, don't bother to switch back.  At the speeds we operate, it is not THAT big of a deal.

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LMichaels

It may be more "slippery"  but it is not made for items with large clearances as it does not have the viscosity to hold up to that. The BGB is a rather crude device with large tolerances and I think the pounding (not the RPMs) that ATF would take in there would not be conducive to long life. ATF is only about a 10W oil

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wwbragg
1 hour ago, LMichaels said:

does not have the viscosity

That makes a lot of sense, Larry.  And since the tolerances on these old machines are probably reaching the outside limits, perhaps the thicker grease is a good idea.  Because the thicker luge is absorbing some of the gear lash, it will also tend to quiet it down some.  Since noise is the first sign of wear, no noise is good news.

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Brettw
5 minutes ago, wwbragg said:

does not have the viscosity

Agreed.  And in almost all uses like the BGB with helical gears or high shearing loads (automobile differentials, manual gear boxes, etc.) I would think a 75/90 weight gear oil would be the best bet.

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wwbragg
14 minutes ago, Brettw said:

in almost all uses

OK, but let's identify the cause of the effect.  As pointed out earlier, modern manual transmissions come from the factory with ATF.  And the simplicity manuals recommend ATF in the BGB.  But that is when they came from the factory.  I think what we have decided is that it is not the kind of gear (i.e. helical) , it is the age and wear to which that gear has been exposed.

Let's go back a couple of years.  Anybody remember STP or Motor Honey?  It was a soda pop sized can of what must have been 150/200 weight oil.  Back in the day, if you needed to trade in your old noisy wreck of a car, you would fill the crank case up with STP and head off to the dealer.

So in the older BGB, go ahead and use thicker oil.  It will sow you down some and you won't get the gas mileage (wah) but there it is.  

That does not apply, however, to the hydrostatic transmission.

 

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, wwbragg said:

And the simplicity manuals recommend ATF in the BGB

For clarification, do you consider the Simpllicity “multi-purpose” fluid an ATF?  

I don’t, but I have no real basis for this belief.  

All I know is the “multi purpose” is a lot thinner and if it’s 10 deg in the shed, the tractors with “multi-purpose” oil in the BGB turn over a lot easier than the tractors with 90wt  oil. 

 

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LMichaels

It's not technically ATF but actually is more like ATF than not. Biggest difference in ATF is has additives and characteristics to work with clutch discs and bands. So it has certain friction modifiers and VERY high detergency to enable it to work properly with different clutch types and so on. In our gearboxes and our Hydro units there are no clutches so really the things in ATF that make it different from Hydro fluid are superfluous and not needed. 

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wwbragg
4 hours ago, PhanDad said:

do you consider the Simpllicity “multi-purpose” fluid an ATF

The manual sees to think they are interchangeable, at least for the hydrostatic trans.  But the multipurpose fluid is listed first so I'm going to side with @LMichaels above.

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LMichaels

Yes in that application they're identical. But, you would not dare put trans/hydraulic fluid into an automatic transmission. Especially a modern one. They have sensors that can determine how much fluid it takes to fill a clutch pack, how ling to engage, algorithms for speeds to match input to output, how quickly they engage and so on. Even something as seemingly harmless as the wring class of ATF i.e. using say Dexron/Mercon V in a Chrysler that calls for say ATF+4 will eat the clutches up. 

It's one of the things I cannot figure out about Amsoil Company. They sell ATF but have no designations for it. IMO no way that stuff can be "universal". Heck even the smell of say Dexron VI is different from Dexron III/IIIH or Mopar ATF+4

You guys now have me wondering if my Sovereign is filled with ATF (or Multipurpose) in it's BGB. Come spring I will definitely have to have a look. In any case I will most likely put in good old gear lube say a good synthetic maybe in the 85W/140 type.

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PhanDad
16 hours ago, LMichaels said:

You guys now have me wondering if my Sovereign is filled with ATF (or Multipurpose) in it's BGB.

If it's a newer Sovereign, it has multi-purpose unless someone changed it.

 

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LMichaels

 The previous owner used all Amsoil lubes and fluid in it and from what he told be he had changed both it and the hydro out. He also used the red Amsoil grease on all the fittings. Currently I have Rotella T6 in the crankcase and regular trans/hydraulic fluid in the hydro. I think it's Delo brand I picked up at Wally world.

I fully intend to change everything again in spring incl the BGB and I'll use some high quality synthetic gear lube in that. I have some synthetic 75w90 in the garage. I may go to a different synthetic product I found though that is an 85W140. Interesting stuff it's even red like ATF.

The reason newer manual gearboxes went to ATF on cars is slightly less fuel consumption but also because they went to synchronizers that are made of the same material clutch packs are made from in auto transmissions instead of old fashioned brass ones and the material does not play well with regular gear lube. So they decided to use Dexron III type ATF and they also now have a very similar (since Dex III is an obsolete spec) product much like the universal fluid Simplicity bottles.

My BGB may very well have the lighter weight stuff in it. Which would explain the fact that even though it's not "loose" it is a little noisier than the BGB I had in my old B10 (which from right after I rebuilt it always had Mobil 1 Differential lube)

28 years and it was still tight, dry and quiet

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