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GardenTrACtorguy

Tractor Engine Seized

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GardenTrACtorguy

I have my grandpa's Minneapolis Moline model ZA tractor that has seized up from sitting over several years.  I know this is not a garden tractor, but I know there are many on here that may lead me in the right direction.  We have a side access plate off of the block to allow us to see in at the crank.  We have put multiple penetrating oils and solutions to try and break it loose.  We have rocked it back and forth and have even gone to the extreme of pulling the tractor in gear on pavement with no success.  What troubles me is that the cylinders from the camera scope show that they look like it was put together yesterday with no rust.  So what could possibly be holding the engine up?

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GregB

Penetrating oil down the cylinders?  Maybe the rings are stuck.  Try figuring out which cylinder was exposed to air through the carb and open valves, that might be the one.

Since you have a way to spin it with the crank, disconnect the ignition, have someone try to crank and watch what try's to move or not.

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rockfangd

Omg. Minneapolis Moline was the first tractor I learned to drive. It was a wide front rather than a narrow.

Was not a huge fan of the narrow front ends. We had a Oliver with that setup.

We had a pretty large bucket on the front and used the 3 point hitch in the back for our other implements. 

The bale spike was cool. You could get up to about 8mph IIRC in 3rd gear. 

I ramble this because I very rarely see or hear about These anymore.

Ok back to business.

Is the belt still on? If so take it off. 

2rwd or 4wd?

I want to make sure it is the engine itself and no possibility of something attached to it.

If it is stuck rings It may take some pressure and time.

If you can pull a plug and have someone look down the hole with the scope while someone rocks the crank back and forth you may see which ones move freely

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GardenTrACtorguy

The hand crank can not move back and fourth only clockwise.  When rocking the tractor back and fourth or rocking the hand crank nothing moves at all. The cam, crank, pistons just do not budge.  Nothing is rusted what so ever.  Also every cylinder is empty of fluid but cylinder number three which still have pb blaster and other mixs in it.  Even pulling it swiftly down the road and popping the clutch has not broken it loose yet.  I figured it would have bent a rod by now.

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rockfangd

I dont think the hand crank may give you enough torque to free the engine. You will probably need a bar.

What exactly did you put into the plug holes?

Not all that sure PB would be enough to do it.

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GardenTrACtorguy

Pb blaster, cenpeco penetrating oil, atf/acetone mix, Shaffer’s penetrating oil and other solutions that I can not remember.  We have watched the pistons and components with the scope to see if they move.  Everything is clean inside the engine.  The cylinder walls have hash marks like it was put together yeasterday.  Would rod or main bearings hold an engine this severely? 

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wwbragg

Remove the crank out the bottom.  Then, using the bottom of each rod, try to turn each piston.  You may be able to break one lose where trying to loosen all four would be impossible.  You may be able to spin the piston in the cylinder and still not be able to remove it.  

Remove the head and, with a block of wood on top of the piston,  try to drive the piston loose.  Or with a hydraulic jack from the bottom, try to push the piston upward.

Man put this monster together; man take it apart.

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Snojetter

I bought an Minnie-Mo RTU about 15 years ago.  Love the MM's and the R was the right size.  I bought it with a stuck engine.  I can't really add much to the conversation accept to say that mine had a stuck valve.  I don't imagine a valve would lock wheels while dragging the tractor, so that likely isn't the issue.  But you have the valve access cover off, so have you tested each valve to see if they move?  That would be something simple to try.  If you had to, removing the rocker arm assemblies is pretty simple - I've done it many times in a matter of minutes.

If the valves are free, remove the rod caps and see if you can move pistons up and down and/or rotate them individually to determine if any of them are indeed stuck.  That will also allow you to rock/rotate the crankshaft to see if it is somehow stuck on its own. That would leave the camshaft if everything is free up to this point.

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lugnard

You might want to be a bit careful in the towing and popping the clutch department....could easily break something. I would lean on taking the cylinder head off and inspect further. Looks like you are more than capable of that. I had ....well still do have , a 38 gmc that the original engine was stuck. Popped the head off and just using the wood handle of the ball peen hammer on each piston 1 time and it spun free. By hand! Course I couldn't get a head gasket for it but I drove it for a couple of months before the used one gave out. Then put a chevy 283 in it.

Do the rear wheels dis-engage with the clutch in? Maybe the trans is stuck?

Good luck and take your time!!

Harry

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GardenTrACtorguy

There is way of removing the crank without splitting the tractor.  The oil pan is part of the frame and is not able to be dropped to pull the crank.  By pulling the head the cylinders would go with them because they are casted in the heads.  We may be able to remove a rod collar and atempt to spin the pistons.  The only access hole to the flywheel is through the starter hole which we have taken out to atempt to rock the engine with no success.  There is nothing packed in the flywheel housing is clean.  The trans does is not locked, can push and pull with the clutch disengaged. Would pulling the heads be the best bet?

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wwbragg
1 hour ago, GardenTrACtorguy said:

By pulling the head the cylinders would go with them because they are casted in the heads.

I have my money on piston rings rusted to cylinder walls.  So disconnect the rod caps and pull the head with cylinders, pistons, and rods all together.  Then, with a piece of a 2x2 and hammer, try to tap each piston loose.  If my scenario is correct, you will probably have to re-sleeve the cylinders.  If you are too aggressive on the hammer, you could damage the piston's ring lands.  But even if you can't find original pistons, you can use pistons from an appropriate alternate application as long as the cylinders are bored and sleeved to match.

Remember, all things are possible to him that believes.

Edited by wwbragg
grammer

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rockfangd

I dont typically recommend popping a manual with issues. It can break things and cause alot more issues. 

Crank, differential, could be damaged by the jolt as the tires do not always skid fast enough.

Do you know the history before this tractor was parked? Just curious in case it had a issue when it was parked. 

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GardenTrACtorguy
4 minutes ago, rockfangd said:

Do you know the history before this tractor was parked? Just curious in case it had a issue when it was parked. 

The tractor had no issues what so ever when parked.  It has just sat in a  carport for several years.  We usual would take the hand crank and turn it over a little every once in a while.  When we decided to push the tractor in the shop to get running it was stuck.

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lugnard

Well...from what you have said, and mind you I am not familiar with a MM but if it were me I would soak the heck out of the cylinders with the best stuff possible... some of my favs are jb 80, Gibbs is very good. kroil  is also good but I don't have a lot of exp. with it. Then I would put the tractor in 4th gear and get maybe 4 guys...2 on each rear tire. and maybe someone looking at the crank from under and rock the tires back and forth to bump the rings free.the guy under would hopefully notice the crank moving a bit back and forth as well which would indicate it is the rings.  Slow and careful and just keep soaking. Since pulling the head is not as simple as I would think... I would give this method a try once a day for about a couple weeks or more. I don't think you will damage anything and it MIGHT just work!!

Another thought I had ..but it involves splitting the tractor which from the sounds of it might be easier than pulling the heads..would be to somehow bolt something to the flywheel...like a heavy plate that has a big bolt welded to it or the like ...and put a 3/4 or 1" drive socket with a 6 to 8 foot cheater and carefully try and bump the crank back and forth. About the same as my idea in 4th gear but more direct to the crank.

I'll keep noodling on it cause that's the kind of stuff I do9_9

Harry

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lugnard

Another thought after looking at the pics... is can you reach up from below with a  long piece of wood and tap the wrist pin area on the pistons or  the rod. even tho the piston will not move due to the crank really not moving.. it may be enough of a shock to break the rings loose.

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LMichaels

My father in law did this trick to unstick an old outboard I bought. Stuck solid BTW. Be put coca cola in the cylinders and let it soak a bit. Followed up with penetrating oil. It freed up

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B-16_IC

Did you say only one cylinder retained the penetrating oil? If so, that's the stuck one. A trick I have been a part of is when you know which cylinder is the culprit take off the valve train so the valves close. Then take an old sparkplug and hollow it out so all that is left is the main shell, the steel part. If you have access to a good source of compressed air weld a fitting to it so you can screw it in and hook the hose to it. Pressurize it and let it sit with pressure on it. This will force lube into the rings.

Similar can be done with a zerk fitting instead of a hose fitting and a grease gun. Although the pressure the air will put to it has a better effect. 

I personally don't know of a topic in the old iron world that will get you more of a variety of answers than a stuck engine. 

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MikeES

Tractor engines are stuck and car engines seize...I think the result is the same.¬¬

You have some great suggestions, but the one I have to add is patience.  My friend (it happened to be a MM also) took 3 weeks to unstuck his.  Kept putting in penetrating oil (even hot penetrating oil) and every day he would rock the tractor back and forth, and one day it was just unstuck and free as can be (it did not "pop" loose), driving it in tractor rides ever since and never opened it up.

Another trick I have done with a locked clutch, is park the tractor on a hill, with some blocks to catch the tractor when it breaks loose or a loose anchored chain to catch it, put it in high gear and walk away.  I think this will work with a stuck piston also, the constant pressure along with the penetrating oil may break is loose.

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tadams

Also have heard of taking oil pan off and putting a hydraulic jack pushing on one of the rod throws on the crank shaft and keep applying penetrating oil till it come loose

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GardenTrACtorguy

We attempted to brake a spark plug apart and weld a air line connector to pressurize the cylinder, but cold not get the spark plug apart.  So we have a bottle jack on the hand crank ascertaining pressure.  We can not take the oils pan off to put a bottle jack on the crankshaft because it is unremovable.

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