Jump to content

Unofficial Home of Old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors

BigNickNY

7010 engine replacement

Recommended Posts

BigNickNY

Well, the Simplicity I thought was a simple fix turned out to be much more than I expected. Finally got to looking into the cylinder and found it badly scored and the Piston burnt! So, I found another engine (K241 out of a Wheel Horse) and I'm currently running into the issue of the sumps not fitting or being even close. I'm assuming I'll have to find the correct spec number for this project? If so, I'd be looking for a k241 46764. 

 

Thanks!

Nick

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GregB

7010 was probably a Briggs Single from the factory so you can look for those also.  Ignition switch and wiring might need changed depending what engine was in the tractor last.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TimJr

Kohler had 2 different style blocks that used 2 very different style oil pan mounting methods and dimensions.  Not familiar with Wheel Horse - got a pic of the bottom of the block?

As mentioned above, going from Briggs to Kohler or vice/versa will require a different key switch and appropriate change to the wiring.  A Briggs uses a magneto ignition and just needs a ground to kill, no battery power for ignition.  The Kohler would require battery power to supply the ignition.  From what I can see, a 7010 was originally a Kohler.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwt
13 hours ago, GregB said:

7010 was probably a Briggs Single from the factory so you can look for those also.  Ignition switch and wiring might need changed depending what engine was in the tractor last.

 

 

This is what I was thinking. Maybe why the sumps are so different. I THINK any cast iron Briggs would bolt right in, so if I wasn't worried about perfect match to the model number, I would certainly consider a syncrobalanced 30 or a 320000 series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwt
9 hours ago, TimJr said:

 

As mentioned above, going from Briggs to Kohler or vice/versa will require a different key switch and appropriate change to the wiring.  A Briggs uses a magneto ignition and just needs a ground to kill, no battery power for ignition.  The Kohler would require battery power to supply the ignition.  From what I can see, a 7010 was originally a Kohler.

Just for the record: Perhaps all Kohlers in Simplicitys have battery ignition, but I have experience with a plethora of K series Kohlers that were/are magneto ignition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PhanDad

I've said it before, for the old single cylinder cast iron engines, when the Toilet craps out, install a Briggs. 

Easier to find and usually the only thing you might have to do is reverse the oil pan to get the drain to line up with the frame cutout.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TimJr

All Kohler engines in a Simplicity/Allis Chalmers used battery ignition.  You are correct that there are magneto equipped Kohlers.  I have never had my hands on one.  Not sure what OEM used them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris727
21 hours ago, TimJr said:

Kohler had 2 different style blocks that used 2 very different style oil pan mounting methods and dimensions.  Not familiar with Wheel Horse - got a pic of the bottom of the block?

As mentioned above, going from Briggs to Kohler or vice/versa will require a different key switch and appropriate change to the wiring.  A Briggs uses a magneto ignition and just needs a ground to kill, no battery power for ignition.  The Kohler would require battery power to supply the ignition.  From what I can see, a 7010 was originally a Kohler.

The System 7010 Landlord had the Briggs in 1975. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris727

Briggs has sump differences too. Yes they are reversable. The issue comes about with the oil fill location. The 3300 through 7000 series had a narrower frame channel than the B-Series and FDT's which had the fill on the pan itself. These newer tractors used a narrower pan to clear the frame and had an oil fill located elsewhere on the engine block. Many of the engines with the fill on the pan, such as from any FDT, did not have provisions elsewhere on the block to add another dipstick tube or filler point. You'd have to cut the frame to clear the pan w/fill or you could drill and tap the block for another dipstick location. Neither is a great choice. Many of the replacement engines through the years did have the additional filler locations and were more "universal." 

 

In the following picture the RBT pan is on the bottom and the more common pan is on the top.

 

IMG_0752.thumb.jpg.89fd3b7f0d4d8f0454143b07fd6c82b5.jpg

IMG_0748.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kwt
22 minutes ago, Chris727 said:

 The 3300 through 7000 series had a narrower frame channel than the B-Series and FDT's which had the fill on the pan itself. These newer tractors used a narrower pan to clear the frame and had an oil fill located elsewhere on the engine block. Many of the engines with the fill on the pan, such as from any FDT, did not have provisions elsewhere on the block to add another dipstick tube or filler point.

 

In the following picture the RBT pan is on the bottom and the more common pan is on the top.

 

IMG_0752.thumb.jpg.89fd3b7f0d4d8f0454143b07fd6c82b5.jpg

IMG_0748.jpg

Maybe RBT is on top and the later ones had dip stick in block instead of pan?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PhanDad
24 minutes ago, kwt said:

Maybe RBT is on top and the later ones had dip stick in block instead of pan?

No, @Chris727 has it correct. The older FDTs had the single fill/drain pan while the RBTs had a drain only pan with a short dipstick/fill in the side of the block or a long dipstick/fill at the top of the block.  My Allis built Homelite T-12 has the drain only pan and side of block dipstick/fill even through the frame is FDT based (solid bottom).  

@Chris727, I installed a late model imported “pull start” 16HP Briggs into the 17GTH-L I picked up with blown KT-17.  It had the single fill/drain pan.  I had to reverse the pan and it just cleared the frame.  So unless the 17GTH-L frame was different from other 7100 series tractors, the pan will fit.  Don’t know if it’ll work pan a 7000 series tractor. I’ll post a pic later if I can find one. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris727

Bill, @PhanDad, Yes I was referring to 3300 through 7000 which had the narrower frame. The 7100/900 have a wider engine cradle/compartment. Yes I have had the FDT pan just barely fit in the 7100/900 tractors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PhanDad
11 hours ago, Chris727 said:

Yes I was referring to 3300 through 7000 which had the narrower frame.

I wasn't aware.  And with CRS, unless I do something with my own hands, I probably won't remember later on.

I did find the pic:

Rebuild_0003b.jpg.002e727597016e57856a994a88d39f2c.jpg

This October 30, 2001 16HP made in China Briggs block did have the port at the top of the block to add the long dipstick/fill.

And it looks like without the frame cutout for the twin, the fill/drain pan wouldn't have fit.  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cwm1276

Working on Dad's 716H with a 16hp Briggs installed, it has the pan with the fill, but the neck was removed and just plugged.  It fits tightly in the frame.   A "T" was fitted on the drain outside of the frame to fill and drain the oil. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TimJr

Sorry - totally blind I guess.  I don't know how I missed that 1975 - 1977 7010 tractors used a Briggs engine.  I looked at the Simplicity Engine Information chart again tonight and it's right there........  When I stated all Kohler yesterday, I kept thinking that I had seen/worked on 7010 tractors and they were Briggs, but when I looked at the chart I saw Kohler.  Must be I didn't scroll down to the next page for the earlier tractors that were Briggs powered.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris727
11 hours ago, PhanDad said:

I wasn't aware.  And with CRS, unless I do something with my own hands, I probably won't remember later on.

I did find the pic:

Rebuild_0003b.jpg.002e727597016e57856a994a88d39f2c.jpg

This October 30, 2001 16HP made in China Briggs block did have the port at the top of the block to add the long dipstick/fill.

And it looks like without the frame cutout for the twin, the fill/drain pan wouldn't have fit.  

 

Thank You Bill.

I had forgotten that these only fit the frames with the twin-cutouts. I had placed one of these engines on my 17GTH-L frame which had the cutouts several years ago and that was what I was remembering. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BigNickNY

I appreciate all the replies here, I've been away for a few days. The Wheel horse is a completely different block than the Simplicity/Allis blocks. It is a Kohler, I know some of them flip back and forth. the different blocks (A and B) differentiate with how they mount to the frame via the sump or this little plate with some rubber bushings. I'll have to see if a Briggs will drop into it, or see if I can't manage to get the cylinder bored out to the next size up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BLT
3 hours ago, BigNickNY said:

I appreciate all the replies here, I've been away for a few days. The Wheel horse is a completely different block than the Simplicity/Allis blocks. It is a Kohler, I know some of them flip back and forth. the different blocks (A and B) differentiate with how they mount to the frame via the sump or this little plate with some rubber bushings. I'll have to see if a Briggs will drop into it, or see if I can't manage to get the cylinder bored out to the next size up.

Here is a dimensional print (hard to read) of Briggs 32 CID engine. From the floor to the C/S center line on 24, 30 and 32 CID Briggs engine is the same as they use block. So looking for a Kohler CI,  I would make sure that matches so the drive shaft comes out straight.

32cid.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BigNickNY

UPDATE! After looking for an engine I finally got my hands on a K-321 out of an Allis originally. The gent who sold it to me also included the original wiring harness as the original 241 harness is a three prong and the 321 harness it a two prong. Got the engine in and all set up today considering it was one of the nicer weather days of the week, NY can't seem to make up its mind on the weather. I'll get to swapping the harness and key switch over some time this week once the weather turns nice again and I have some outside time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MikeES
On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 7:57 PM, BigNickNY said:

The gent who sold it to me also included the original wiring harness as the original 241 harness is a three prong and the 321 harness it a two prong.

Most of the K241 had a separate lighting coil (I believe 75w) and low amp charging coil (3 amp).  Because they did not have an alternator nor a voltage regulator.  So they had three wires.  Most of the K321 had an alternator (15a) and a voltage regulator, so they did not have the separate lighting coil and wire, thus 2 wire harness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BigNickNY

I've managed to get the wiring harness and key switch that was for this engine (Out of a 7114) and everything kicks over nice and smoothly now! A slight electrical issue now with the plug that goes into the back of the key switch but luckily I have one at work and will be switching it over (old one was melted and caused a short) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TimJr
On 3/27/2019 at 3:45 PM, MikeES said:

Most of the K241 had a separate lighting coil (I believe 75w) and low amp charging coil (3 amp).  Because they did not have an alternator nor a voltage regulator.  So they had three wires.  Most of the K321 had an alternator (15a) and a voltage regulator, so they did not have the separate lighting coil and wire, thus 2 wire harness.

I don't remember any Allis/Simplicity or John Deere K241 engines not having an alternator and voltage regulator.  Per the Kohler K series service manual, only magneto ignition equipped K241 engines had the 3 amp lighting coil.  All battery ignition engines used at least a 10 amp stator/alternator and voltage regulator system, or a belt driven generator.

The Kohler voltage regulator has 3 wires.  The outer 2 tabs are the AC from the stator, and the center is the B+ to charge the battery.

I just bought one of the last Kohler voltage regulator testers.  Kohler is discontinuing them, not a hot seller anymore, but a neat tool to have.  You can test a number of regulators by plugging into them.  

I assume all garden tractors used battery ignition Kohler engines, and the magneto ignition engines were used for other applications.

A number of Allis/Simplicity tractors used Briggs engines over the years that had an A/C circuit for headlights and then a low amperage, unregulated DC charge circuit.  My 7016 used that system, known as a dual circuit charging system.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×