LMichaels Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 So I used my Sovereign a couple weeks ago to mow my neighbor's lawn. It had gotten a little out of hand for them so when I saw him out there struggling with a little 20" push mower, in quite tall gass I offered to help him out. Took the Sovereign outta the garage as I thought the little Honda with only 13 hp compared to the big heavy Simplicity with 20 HP would be a better match. And, it was. It went through that hayfield on basically just a fast idle. I honestly don't think I had to wind it harder that 2000 RPM. Didn't even show a hint of even needing to tip into the governor either. Put it back in the garage where it sat until today. Same neighbor struggling away so again I offered help. Went there with the Simplicity pushed the PTO lever forward and...............................nothing. Tried again and again nothing. No noises no blades whirring nothing. So as I was putting it away I tried it once more and wham, I had mower running. Disengaged ran it back over, engaged it again and nothing. So I went there with the little Honda which got through it quite well though you could definitely feel it was no Sovereign. Later for s^&ts and giggles I tried it again and again it engaged like normal. Disengaged it a little later so I could dismount, re-engaged and again nothing. Thoughts?
dhoadley Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) Engage it at your house and run it over to the neighbors's, blades a-whirlin'? (I'm just a wise-n-hiemer who doesn't understand how most of this stuff works. ) Edited June 23, 2019 by dhoadley
Bill725 Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) The 13HP (?) Honda 20" push mower has 0.65 HP/inch of cut. Your 20HP, at 3600 RPM, Sovereign with 48" mower has only .42HP/inch of cut, less than that at 2000 RPM. Your Sovereign would need at least 31HP to match the Honda. Where did your neighbor buy his push mower as I am jealous? Edited June 23, 2019 by Bill725
SmilinSam Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) Could be : out of adjustment ( lever not letting pullys engage the cap and lining properly) bad clutch lining in the cap bad or broken spring behind the clutch pullys keyway problems.. ... Hard to tell till you tear it apart and start looking..... I would start by locking down the push valves so the tractor cant move while running, lift the seat deck and while standing clear of the deck I would turn the pto on and off hoping to get it to not engage while running and see whats happening at the pto. Would actually be safer to just take the seat deck off and stand behind the tractor while doing this. You could take the deck belt off to, but the resistance of it being on is probably a factor in whats happening. This is what "I" would do anyhow. You and Others may have other ideas. Always do what you do safely. Edited June 23, 2019 by SmilinSam
LMichaels Posted June 23, 2019 Author Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Bill725 said: The 13HP (?) Honda 20" push mower has 0.65 HP/inch of cut. Your 20HP, at 3600 RPM, Sovereign with 48" mower has only .42HP/inch of cut, less than that at 2000 RPM. Your Sovereign would need at least 31HP to match the Honda. Where did your neighbor buy his push mower as I am jealous? I never indicated the neighbor's pusher had 13hp. My Honda tractor has a 42" deck and 13 HP. I think it goes beyond just HP though. The engine on the Simplicity is twice the displacement and it's obvious has tons more torque than the Honda does. That being said does anyone with experience on this clutch have any tear down photos they would be willing to share?
PhanDad Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 Sam gave a good troubleshooting overview. A simple very safe first step would be to engage clutch normally and if it doesn’t engage, shut tractor down without touching PTO and then examine it. PS - you may have to do this at neighbors
GregB Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) Larry, You never really said which model/vintage Sovy you have. Here is a Parts list picture from a 7016H, but they are all basically the same from the 3400 series right up to the end of production. But the later models have an adjustment for belt tension that this one does have. If you go to a vendor site like Jacks, you can put your model number in and find the same pic for exactly your tractor. At least it gives you an idea what it looks like. There is a large frame repair manual, available for download for members in the down load section, and it might also be available somewhere else on the web. Edited June 23, 2019 by GregB 1
GregB Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 If your tractor is a 7100 series, maybe the belt from Mid PTO Clutch needs tension adjusted. Here is a snip of that. It is adjusted by loosening bolt and sliding the pulley until the swing arm is in the green zone on the decal. May have to clean dirt off the arm though.
LMichaels Posted June 23, 2019 Author Posted June 23, 2019 I can't give a model or vintage because the tag is missing and a dumb little decal is all Simplicity sees fit to help in identification of a machine. I only know it was one that apparently had a Triad on it. When the Triad blew the dealer who had been servicing it installed an off the shelf Command Pro 20 (CH20). So as for vintage I guess later 90's? Or is there any other identification than the "sticker" on the frame? Is there anywhere the model/SN is stamped in? If so I could truly identify the machine. To this point I have done some "basics". I have watched the actuation with the machine not running and with it running. All appears "normal" though it does not "engage" the deck drive. My next step is I am going to disassemble it for an "autopsy". I am assuming it comes apart from the large nut on the BGB shaft and once linkages are removed everything pretty much slides off. IF this is correct than it will be my next step. I am kinda thinking that the spring may be the culprit which might explain the sometimes perfectly normal operation and more times not. Also it might explain the sudden failure
LMichaels Posted June 23, 2019 Author Posted June 23, 2019 Definitely not a belt adjustment as nothing even "tries" to spin and when it does it's perfectly normal and can mow right through heavy stuff with no slow down or slip
GregB Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) If I had looked at signature line, I would have figured out the vintage of your tractor. Pretty sure you can pull the cone clutch and access the spring etc without disassembling the linkage. Large nut comes off, might have to use a pipe wrench on on the end of shaft to keep it from spinning. Remove cone clutch. Use a large Parallel jaw clamp, mine is wood with two screw handles to squeeze spring and compress clutch. Remove retaining ring, everything should slide off If a broken spring aligns sometimes might explain the intermittent operation. Edited June 23, 2019 by GregB
PhanDad Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) Maybe just an adjustment if you're lucky: Edited June 23, 2019 by PhanDad Added Figure2b
LMichaels Posted June 23, 2019 Author Posted June 23, 2019 One would hope an adjustment. I am going to play with it tomorrow. I guess I'll have to get a couple of those clamps as well. So it looks like I can pull the entire assembly and then the clamp(s) are/is needed to disassemble the clutch? Not sure if I ever asked.....................has anyone ever converted this clutch to an electric one? If so what did you use and how did it work out?
PhanDad Posted June 23, 2019 Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, LMichaels said: So it looks like I can pull the entire assembly No. As Greg said, first you remove the large nut, this allows you to pull the "bell" off of the shaft. Although it puts stress on the BGB gears, I put a large screw drive (basically a 3/8" rod) thru the BGB input yoke, rotate the cone clutch so the screwdriver hits the sideplate, then use an impact gun to remove the nut. Before I got an impact gun, I used a 1/2" breaker bar to get the nut off - hence the screwdriver use; with an impact gun, you might not even need the screwdriver. Once the "bell" is off, you use the clamps to compress the pulley against the spring so you can get to the retaining ring. Once the retaining ring is off, the pulley assembly can come off. I think pivot assembly has to come with it. I don't have any pics of the disassembly process,but here are some pics of the pulley with pivot assembly: Pics of the bearing: The single bearing pic and the bearing on the right in the 2 bearing pics is the OEM Simplicity bearing. It is sleeved, originally brass (?) and now not as seen in the pic. It is very expensive. It's bore might be slightly larger than the stock 1014KRR bearing since the bearing does slide slightly on the shaft when it's engaged/dis-engaged. There are posts on the site discussing the use of the stock bearing. 1 hour ago, LMichaels said: Not sure if I ever asked.....................has anyone ever converted this clutch to an electric one? If so what did you use and how did it work out? It has been discussed, but I don't believe ever done. Besides getting the belt groove in the correct location, I believe a major issue is the key - there's only 1 woodruff key slot and it's located at the end of the shaft. If you had a BGB cross shaft from the early 70's before the cone clutch, it would be much easier install. A pic of the current and old (Homelite T-10) cross shafts: 1
LMichaels Posted June 24, 2019 Author Posted June 24, 2019 Well here is where I am at now. Thoughts on what I am seeing
maxwood Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 Hello, It may be a lubrication issue , so the cone clutch can slide easily on the shaft . hopefully it may be that simple . The cone clutch lining looks in good condition . Thanks Ken in Mi
PhanDad Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 First thing I notice from the pics is the clutch bell lining looks to be warn unevenly. The lining at about 2 o'clock appears very thin. Might be just the pics or it might be time for a new lining. Second observation is the there's of dust/dirt/rust present. That might be interfering with the pulley traveling smoothly - sometimes it travels all the way to the clutch bell, sometimes it hangs. Clean it up and make sure it slides freely. You can use the wood clamps to compress the spring to get more of the shaft exposed for cleaning. If it were me, unless I couldn't get the pulley assembly to slide freely, I wouldn't remove the assembly. In my experience, those retaining rings are a bear to get off and many times they get bent and you need a new one. Before you took it apart, was the adjustment "in-spec"? I assume so, or you wouldn't have pulled the clutch bell. As to reinstalling the clutch bell, the instructions say to use a new nut. I strongly advise it. I reused one and it came loose.
BLT Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 Pull the plug wires off and I assume mower is in up position, try rotating mower blade to see if there is any belt resistance. Just a wild thought, deck belt ran off or tensioner is not functioning? Machine is almost 20 yrs old. https://simpletractors.com/videos/view-66-mower-deck-auto-tensioner-bushing-maitenence/
LMichaels Posted June 24, 2019 Author Posted June 24, 2019 I just went completely through the deck, new belt, new idler everything greased. I think had I known how the stupid thing actually worked and kept my head Some cleaning and a bit of lube on the shaft might have done the trick. Now I am REALLY stuck. In trying to get the g*(da*& thing apart I have totally mangled that stupid woodruff key that is literally welded in the slot. I have actually resorted to trying to drill and chisel it out. So far I have broken a large chisel, damaged or broken 3 drill bits. I am nearly ready to go in with an angle grinder put the clutch housing back on and sell the thing for scrap iron. I am THAT frustrated and angry with it.
PhanDad Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 Since you broke a chisel, I assume you already cut a groove in the end of the key and tried to pry it out. Using a Dremel with a reinforced cut-off wheel, try widening and deepening the groove so a heavy flat blade screwdriver fits in the groove and try to pry it out again. If that doesn’t work, then use the cutoff wheel to cut down the center of the key (parallel to the shaft) to relieve the compression force. It’ll be a long grind, but it will succumb.
LMichaels Posted June 24, 2019 Author Posted June 24, 2019 Trouble is the clutch covers more than 50% of the available area. Issue solved though. Went to Harbor Freight and picked up a small air chisel and 2 sets of chisel attachments (long and short) https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools-compressors/air-tools/air-impact-hammer-kit-92037.html https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools-compressors/air-tools/air-hammers/4-in-short-air-chisel-set-4-pc-68277.html https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools-compressors/air-tools/air-hammers/7-in-long-air-chisel-set-3-pc-68276.html Took everything home and then to my surprise the chisels fit my VERY old Snap On Air Hammer bought when I became a journeyman Cadillac tech back in the late 60's. Well I used the conical punch from the longer set and that power house impact of mine knocked it right out. I cleaned everything well, filed any rough edges from the cutout and installed a new #9 Key ($00.79 at Menard's) I also put some synthetic moly based lube on the shaft and worked it in so the clutch could move freely again. Just tried it out. Engagement is swift and sure, no screech noise on engagement either and the lever now operates even easier than the one on my Honda 4514. I put the adjustment right back where it was but I think I may go through it according to the directions that were kindly attached to this thread. But, for now all is well in Sovereign land 3
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