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St Florian, we have a problem with A 65 Landlord


MrSteele

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OK, the engine was rebuilt, the BGB rebuilt, a bunch of improvements to the steering, front end, paint, etc. I need a new battery charger, OK, understand why I had to boost it off. The engine wanted to go, but. When it started, I shut it down because of a howling noise. I started again, same howl. I know it is not in the engine.

A screwdriver to the ear test reveals that I have the end play of the cross shaft adjusted properly, sounds like bearings running as they should, no noise other that the shaft turning inside them.But there is a loud HOWL.

I am assuming, and will try tomorrow..that I have connected as the factory paperwork shows, all the spacers between the drive shaft and engine, and drive shaft and BGB, should be in place. When I tore it down, there were no spacers between the drive shaft and the universal discs, at either end.  Something has changed? I put it back as close to spec as possible, but the noise is coming from the input shaft to the BGB, again, according to the screwdriver test.

I will remove the spacers between the discs and the shaft, on both ends, and put it back as it was at disassembly.

Anyone else had this or a similar problem?

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A howl in bevel gears I think is caused by incorrect amount of engagement spacing, to close together?

Not much help

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The 1965 Landlord 9 has the older/small BGB, meaning 3/4" shafts and bearings. One of the issues recently brought up related to the small BGB is, the original design of the RH seal is no longer manufactured, NLA, and has been superseded with a seal that meets the ID and OD requirements, but is not the same thickness. The original seal, P/N 154278, thickness was 0.437", whereas the superseded seal P/N 2168006SM, is 0.250" thick. Understanding on the RH side of the BGB, all of the parts are drawn up tight, meaning when you tighten the lock nut on the RH end of the shaft, it pulls the shaft to the right causing the shoulder on the shaft up against the bevel gear, which in turn pushes the gear up against the inner race of the ball bearing, the outer race of the ball bearing pushes up against the seal, the seal pushes up against the shims and the shims bottom out on the side plate. Based on a recent post, my understanding to resolve the seal thickness issue is to use two seals for a total thickness of 0.500" and use 0.063" (0.500" - 0.437") less shim to make flush with machined side plate mounting surface. Another way would be to make a tube spacer to fit the ID of the back of the seal and make the thickness appropriate so the seal and spacer thickness is 0.437" like to original seal design. This is what is used on the newer/big BGB with 7/8" shafts and bearings. When done correctly there should be absolutely no cross shaft end play and the correct gear clearance.

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Well, my build is the reason the seal being NLA was brought up. After much discussion about the seal, I found 2 on Ebay that were NOS, and put one in. Well, with the seal installed and shimmed correctly, there is still a growling in the gears, caused by the gears being too close. The shop manager, Bill at Sandy Lake and I discussed the problem at great length. We decided that the bearing should be shimmed, seal installed, then any difference taken up by the factory shims between the BGB and side plate. Apparently, there were some killed housings, or a bearing spun, or? causing the bore to be deeper than intended. I am in the process of installing a shim between the bearing and the housing, By my measurements, a shim of .012 should make all things normal, but that is a calculation. I will take it apart tomorrow and measure exactly. 

When I removed shims to reduce the growl, I created endplay, according to the manual, the shims are installed between the seal and side plate only to bring the seal/shims flush against the side plate. At flush, I have endplay that I am not supposed to have at around .038. I am going to attempt to shim the bearing the get the proper gear lash, then shim between the seal and bearing to get the proper endplay. Will let you know how that goes

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update:

Sideplate off, seal ruined, bearing out. With a depth mic, the shoulder is 1.072 from the machined surface on the outside. Distance to the gear  was measured after removal of the rear tire, to be able to get a 6" caliper in the space. I thought that the outer face of the gear was closer to the outside of the housing than the shoulder, thus, shim the bearing. With the new knowledge that the shaft was attempted to be turned and something may have been amiss inside, everything back in place where it belongs, the gear face is .009 beyond the ridge, as it should be. Was told between .009 and .012

I had a "helper" in the shop before I bolted it all together. He was back last week to help with cutting 50 lbs of onions for a church function, making chicken stew for a 4th of July church fund raiser, and attempted what he had done the week prior. He told me that he had tried turning the shaft before I bolted together and could not turn anything. Last week, he had a PTO pulley to hold on to, and was able to spin the shaft easier. He thought it would have a lot of endplay since he could pull the shaft out from the sideplate. This person is a retired mechanical engineer! I thought I was going to have to break the tractor back apart to get the driven gear back into proper position to put it together, that maybe the gear was off the key. After a lot of colorful language and playing with the PTO pulley, I was able to get the gear back into position, I think, since I can turn the motor with the PTO pulley. I intend to add shims/washers behind the rope pulley to tighten the gear on the shaft. The shimmed seal is to reduce or eliminate endplay. My thoughts and discussions with another retired mechanical engineer during the all night stew stirring, is that the extremely well made chinese bearing may have some brinelling due to improper loading/tightening during the initial assembly of a shaft that was not in the proper place during assembly. He was in the shop during the onion cutting, and told the other one not to disturb the position of the shaft since it was not in place yet, but opened his mouth too late. I ordered another bearing and 2 seals from Motion.

I also checked with a shop manual that told nothing about positioning of the shaft with shims, other than shims are added to reduce or eliminate endplay in the stack. There is no torque value given for the nut. I had thought that goodentite with a long 1/2" ratchet might have been too goodentite, and that I might have to simply use a normal 1/2" ratchet to get it sort of goodentite. That overtightening could also have caused brinelling of the well made chinese bearing. I am going to replace it just to make me feel better.

Will let ya'll know how it worked, or didn't in a couple days

Edited by MrSteele
wording
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  • 3 weeks later...

Update. And not a good update. In the interim, have refinished the dining room oak tabletop, repaired a few mowers and weed whackers for profit, then reassembled. Same outcome. Before bolting back together, I had barely perceptible gear lash, as I should have. I drove the seals in til I had no endplay, and the 2 seal combination put the outside face of the seals .014 from the inside of the side plate. I used .009 shims, and bolted it together, cranked it up, and gears growled like before. Knowing I had .006 to play with, I drove the cross shaft from the PTO side until I have endplay, or, drove the seals the .006 distance to the side plate. I have endplay, but the gears are still too tight

It is coming back down today, but this time, will remove the PTO side rear tire so I can pull the shaft out of the BGB housing and install my old gear. I am thinking now, that something is amiss with the likely chinese made gears. This build is getting extremely aggravating and expensive. Will have to put it back together to check anything. With the amount of growling, I have most likely killed one gear or the other, and may have to replace both again. I am just short of removing the BGB and sending it to Sandy Lake to let them build it. This would not be so aggravating but about 20 years ago, I put new gears, bearings and seals in the BGB, bolted it back together and started using it with no problems.

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Update to the update! Grrrrrr. The output gear I bought new is the problem. The old gear is clearly marked "Arrow". It was in bad shape, so I bought a new one that is not marked at all. BGB back on the bench, ruined a few more seals and ordered new ones. With the box on the bench, with as much pressure as I can push with my fingers against the bearing, the new gear growls, or, I can feel the gears meshing. With the old gear in the same situation, I have a smooth operation of the gears. The new gear is either made wrong or it is made wrong. Not sure what the problem is, I am assuming the teeth are too long and run too deep into the driven gear. I should replace the driven gear, but, if the new driven gears are all that way, my chipped gear will have to suffice for a while longer, til the chinese learn how to make gears properly. Of course, this might be a way for Briggs to tell us that they are tired of us repairing old equipment, and we need to buy their new junk?

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You probably don't want to hear this, but I'm pretty sure the repair manual states to replace gears in sets.  

Maybe Dan aka @rokon2813 could help you out with a used FDT set.  

 

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I may have a pair of used gears, would need to look. In the meantime, are you absolutely sure you didn't swap locations between the drive and driven gears ? They will swap positions and appear to mesh correctly, but they will growl and wear rapidly. Been so long I can't remember which is which without looking, but laying on a bench side by side, one gear tooth will curve up and left and the other up and right. Hope that makes sense.

Dennis Freshour if he is still a member here did have some nice gears for sale, but I don't know if they were early or later size

 

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Well, I did replace with both NEW gears. I only purchased the input gear at first, then decided to also replace the output gear. The input shaft was in place with the gear on it when I made the decision to buy the new output gear. They are not in the wrong position. However, I did a bit of research after removing the BGB and disassembling it on my bench instead of making attempts in the tractor. The new output gear is 1.006 long, the original is 0.994, measured from the tip of the gear to the end of the hub. The teeth on the new gear are almost straight in comparison to the old gear. Out to out of teeth, new gear is 2.192", old gear, 2.165". The new gear is simply made wrong. Both were new. My old gear meshes perfectly with the new input gear, the new output gear does not. I have sent that info to Brenda, and am going to send the gear back. Bill said he wanted to put it into a gearbox in the shop to see if it works. As much as I have spent upgrading and painting, improving steering, improving the action on the front end pivot, a new battery box, new cables, new choke cable, rewired into plastic conduit, new fuel lines, rebuilt the engine, relined and painted the tank. I have babied this thing to last at least 30 more years. I intend to get the gears right before trying to reassemble. If I cannot get new, will get a set of used, but would much rather have new


 
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  • 2 weeks later...

I received another gear over the weekend, a new one, and as best I can tell until complete assembly, this one works. I have the BGB on the bench, put the old gear in to feel the mesh, put the new one in, repeated, several times. Both feel the same..on the bench. I have taken several mowers in for repair and will get back to mine later this week. Keeping my fingers,legs and toes crossed!!

With a caliper, both my old gear and new one measure the same. The old gear has an Arrow Gear Works trademark stamp, as does the latest new one. The first new gear had zero markings. Those of you buying new gears, look for markings, if there are none, talk to your supplier before putting the BGB back together. It may or may not work. Check the mesh of the gears while the box is still on your bench, be sure of the mesh before putting together. I will next time. Also, use a new key. The gear should not be a loose fit on the shaft. I had to tap mine in place with a dead blow hammer.

And, if you do not own a dead blow hammer, get one. Bearing life, whether on the cross shaft, front wheels or your decks will increase if you do not use a steel faced hammer to install bearings. Best to press them in, but many do not have a press with enough travel to do a lot of things bearing related

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Glad to hear another new gear seems to have solved the problem.  

I'm thinking the first gear you received is a different, but similar gear.  It got mislabeled somewhere along the line.  Hopefully you can return it.  

My story:

I've had the experience of receiving a mislabeled compression spring from Grainger's.  Ordered it, picked it up and took it home.  I wasn't smart enough to check it in the store.  Wrong size, it was bigger than it was supposed to be.  Called customer service, they said they'd ship another one, and swap it out.  I was notified the replacement part was in, went to get it, it was the same size.  First two employees I spoke to said it's "the part I ordered", the tag agrees with the order.  Tried to get them to look in catalog and check size.  They said I'd have to talk with their manager.  I waited for him.  He looked at the catalog and the measured the size.  He thought it might be wrong.  He called the supplying warehouse (NY area I think) and got someone to measure the ones in the parts bin, (there were many) - same as what was shipped (not surprising).  He then looked online for another Grainger warehouse that had the part in stork,  he called (Cleveland?) and asked them to measure the part they had - surprise!!  It was smaller.  So he had them ship one for me.  I left the store with him muttering about how he was going to get someone at the NY warehouse believe that they had a bin of mislabeled parts.  I'm sure it happens all the time.    

 

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22 hours ago, PhanDad said:

I'm thinking the first gear you received is a different, but similar gear.  It got mislabeled somewhere along the line.  Hopefully you can return it

I sent the wrong gear back, the new one is a replacement for it. That had nothing to do with extra seals, aggravation and hours of taking apart and playing with it, though. I think the store is also going to try to get their money back from an improperly filled order. Unless you look hard at the gear, you can see no difference. New gear on left

 

5d49dad00d214_Outputgears.thumb.jpg.ad35545fc75052b894fd76db988f0336.jpg

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Beautiful. The proper gear, 2 seals, a few shims (.048). and put it together as it should be.. and I drove it around in the yard. NO gear noises, no vibration noise due to the .060 gasket material at the connection to the dash/front end/gear plate..amazing what the proper gear does

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On 8/13/2019 at 6:31 AM, Bill725 said:

Question, what does ".060 gasket material at the connection to the dash/front end/gear plate" mean?

Vibration dampening. I installed the gasket material at all metal to metal connections on the dash, between the dash and the tractor frame. I simply tried to quiet a few rattles I think I had in the dash. The 2 bolts in front of the gear shift and the 2 bolts on either side at the front of the dash, and the dash to frame at the steering column now have .060 gasket material to attempt those rattles. I could not tighten the bolts enough to make the rattle go away, so I damped them. The grill assembly to the tractor will also be treated thusly, and I will figure out a way to damp the hood rattle. It is just aggravation. The hood rattles so badly that I simply leave it off most of the time. I am not certain where the hood rattle is, could be the dash or grill assembly. I have the original hood bolts and tighten them with a pair of pliers, but, the rattle is always present. The damping already installed might be the problem solvers for the hood rattle

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  • 2 months later...

St. Florian, aka Bill725, to the rescue!

As stated in a post above, "Another way would be to make a tube spacer to fit the ID of the back of the seal and make the thickness appropriate so the seal and spacer thickness is 0.437" like to original seal design. This is what is used on the newer/big BGB with 7/8" shafts and bearings. When done correctly there should be absolutely no cross shaft end play and the correct gear clearance."

 

Sm BGB RH Seal Pic 1.jpg

Sm BGB RH Seal Pic 2.jpg

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What they are selling to solve the problem may actually be as good or better than original equipment, and works for even those without a lathe or access to one in the corner of the shop. The 2 seal arrangement works with the use of some of the factory shims in place. I will have to look to see which I did not use. The 2-1/4" +/- seals  can allow one seal to fail and the other hold, in theory. The newer seals are not 1/4" thick, and will require shims when put in place. That thickness is a nominal dimension, not actual.

2 hours ago, Bill725 said:

Another way would be to make a tube spacer to fit the ID of the back of the seal and make the thickness appropriate so the seal and spacer thickness is 0.437" like to original seal design. This is what is used on the newer/big BGB with 7/8" shafts and bearings. When done correctly there should be absolutely no cross shaft end play and the correct gear clearance."

I am supposed to get a lathe in the near future, and as soon as I finish the Yazoo mandrels and a couple Yazoo axles, I have a 64 Landlord BGB coming to the bench. I will make the spacer for it, and make it such that I do not need a shim at all in that gearbox, whether 0.437 or thicker will depend on the actual distance from the gear face to the nominal 1/4" seal. Most likely, we are talking about 0.470 to remove the need for a shim.

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22 hours ago, MrSteele said:

What they are selling to solve the problem may actually be as good or better than original equipment, and works for even those without a lathe or access to one in the corner of the shop

What who is selling??? And what are they selling???

If you are referring to what Bill has come up with above, you can't be serious to think the two seals pressed in is a better option.  This is the same way the larger shaft BGB are configured with the spacer & the seal.  They all require the shims during final assembly.  IF you think you can make a similar setup without using the shims, your spacer will be different on every one you build based on the shim stack thickness as they are not all the same.

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2 hours ago, ShaunE said:

What who is selling??? And what are they selling???

The Simplicity parts dealers are selling a 2 seal option to replace the thick OEM seal. And I am not saying that Bill has not come up with a great option, I am only saying that I intend to make a spacer that should not require the shims for the 64 BGB that I am going to build. If one has the proper tools to make something that works for him/her, why not use them and do so? If I want to make different length spacers, that is my option. Bill is making something for sale, I will be making something for my own use, and will likely only make one, possibly 2 if my 65 BGB decides to come apart again.

 

2 hours ago, ShaunE said:

If you are referring to what Bill has come up with above, you can't be serious to think the two seals pressed in is a better option.

 Just because something works, does not mean it has to be used. Even with the 2 seals, shims are required, just not as many. Until Bill decided to fabricate and sell the items, 2 seals were as good as original, and still will be if a builder decides to do it thusly. One seal simply takes up space in the housing, as does the spacer on the later models. I personally did not like the 2 seal option, but it was all I had at the time of the build. That does not mean there is no other way to accomplish the same goal. Simplicity likely sold the spacer option on the later models since it was cheaper than retooling for another option on the BGB casting

The original Yazoo mandrels were cast iron. Years ago, I made them from schedule 80 pipe on a 1/4" steel flange, when I had the proper tools in my Dad's shop. The cast iron mandrels were available at parts stores at the time. A good lick on rocks or stumps broke them. The steel housing did not break. Blades are belt driven. I considered it better for the belts to slip than to have to replace, even at that time, a very expensive piece of a lawnmower. I gave a customer the option of a new part from the dealer, or one I made. I made several, bought several.

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