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JohnFornaro

Repowering Triad Sovereign

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JohnFornaro

You guys were very helpful when I was repowering my 3310H, and I am very thankful.  Here's the next challenge:

My '92 Triad equipped Sovereign, which I've owned since '03, has finally died.  The bad news is that "all engines impossible" down the street took $800 from me and didn't repair it earlier.  The good news is that I have a Briggs 16HP cast iron engine "in stock". 

The plan is to repower the Sovereign, but there's a new twist.  The Sovereign has a lot more electrical connections than the 3310H.  The Briggs has a point based ignition, and should have sufficient power to run the Sovereign with a tiller or snowblower.  There are a lot of interlock switches, lights, and an ammeter, which I think I understand.

The problem areas?  Ignition module, flywheel alternator, regulator rectifier, interlock module, yada yada.  I'm wondering if I can modify the old 3310H wiring harness [171810] a bit?   I'm open to creating my own harness.

Any proposed wiring diagram suggestions?  Many thanks!

Sovereign-Wiring-Diagram-37.JPG

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SmilinSam

Starter generator engine or flywheel starter/ stator  charging type engine?

 

Easier to think of the rewire by breaking it down into systems, rather than the individual components of each system.

 

If your wiring diagram is for the tractor you are repowering, then you already have the correct mag type ignition keyswitch.

Eliminate the rewire by circuits.

1: Kill circuit is easy.. The wire from the M tab on the key switch will end up going to the kill wire on the engine. You just have to figure out which wire that is on the Kohler engine wiring harness. Likely will be the only wire that grounds to the frame when the key is off if you are lucky. However there are diagrams out there for the engine wiring that shows which wire does what.

2: power supply to the keyswitch wont change

3: heavy wire from solenoid to starter will be moved to the correct point on your new engines starter.(even if its a starter generator)

4: charging system. If you are using a starter generator, you will have to add the regulator into the mix somewhere on the tractor. The output from the starter generator to the regulator will be the same as its always been.  The output of regulated current from the regulator will have to be connected to the wire that connects the tractor harness to the output on the kohler regulator. Usually its the wire in the center of the kohler regulator. Check the engine diagram as well if you find one.

All that leaves for loose wires is the engine shut off solenoid ( which you can tape off as it is going to be unused), and the low oil shut down wire.  That is the only wire I dont know what to tell you to do with.  As its part of the interlock system, it has to be dealt with properly for the engine to be able to fire. All it is is a pressure or fluid level switch. Probably a pressure switch since its a 2 cyl pressure lube engine.  All you need to do is figure out how to wire it up to make the sensor think there is pressure or oil in the system...and I really dont know how that switch is setup to work.

So... if the tractor wiring system was working, you only have that oil switch to worry about really. The rest is gravy given that you are going to slap another magneto ignition engine into it.

If you were using a Battery iginition there would be some different steps, but all in all not that much more difficult.

Hopefully my mind is still working enough here to be accurate in what I have told you. If not ....I'm sure someone else will chime in with waders and a scoopshovel to clean up after me...

Edited by SmilinSam
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PhanDad

@SmilinSam pretty much covered it. 

If you have a newer ring gear starter with alternator charging system Briggs, the electrical connections are easy.  A couple specifics:

The Triad engine connector contains only 2 wires:

image.jpeg.775e316f5c3ae47392617a963c272c92.jpeg
The white wire is the kill wire; connect it to Briggs “kill” terminal (on the points cover or the same location if it’s a newer Briggs).  
 

The red/blue trace wire is the “+” 12V from the Triad voltage regulator; connect to the same terminal on the Briggs voltage regulator.

As Sam said, connect the heavy red power wire from the solenoid to the Briggs ring gear starter.  
 

I think the frame of your tractor is the same as my 75th.  Initially I was going to install a single cylinder Briggs into it.  If I remember correctly, the frame isn’t drilled for a Briggs single cylinder, but 2 front holes lined up OK.  Never pursued it any further.  Regardless, you’ll need a longer driveshaft, unless you can mount the engine far enough back to use the Triad driveshaft (I doubt it).

For reference, you can find some info/opinions in this post:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/22293-replacing-kt-with-briggs-questions/?tab=comments#comment-299012

If your using a Briggs with S/G, the wiring is a bit more complicated and you have to find a spot for the large “mechanical” voltage regulator.  There are some comments in the above post concerning this issue.  

I don’t have all my pics available now; I’ll post some I think might help later.  
 

3 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

...I'm sure someone else will chime in with waders and a scoopshovel to clean up after me...

 No clean up required. sm01 

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PhanDad

75th frame pics, including some pics of a greasy old Briggs sitting in it:

IMG_7639.thumb.JPG.6cfb86290d2f3adc234853b74fd0ea71.JPG

IMG_7640.thumb.JPG.00cc75c1d0af93a9cd0e941f4c87ddd2.JPG

IMG_7641.thumb.JPG.203ea3c41733cc63cf3e873ee531e4a5.JPG

IMG_7642.thumb.JPG.6c0a3f04168baf798c7ea362434e310d.JPG

Note there's no frame oil drain hole on the left side of the tractor.  Maybe reversing the pan will solve that problem - that's what I did when I installed the Briggs in the 17GTH-L.

Re-reading your post, I'm thinking your Briggs has a S/G, so here's a couple blurry pics of where I mounted the S/G voltage regulator in the 17GTH-L.  

Dash_0004.jpg.5554f21beaf038c6b67e23c3393d4a56.jpg

Dash_0005.jpg.56515b01f458bc5cd16d8af505f1c0e3.jpg

I ran 2 new wires from the F (field) and G (generator) connectors of the voltage regulator to the S/G's F & G connection points.  I pulled the red/blue trace wire (mentioned above) back toward the dash and connected it to the B (battery) connector of the voltage regulator.  

This is a pic of where I believe @Chris727 mounted the voltage regulator:

 SovOldDash.jpg.7bfce5dd5330c4c1f9e918a0b15a65de.jpg

 

 

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JohnFornaro

Smilin' Sam: "Starter generator engine or flywheel starter/ stator  charging type engine?"

The "new" engine is a starter generator system with points.

Thanks for all that electrical stuff!  It will take some study for me to figure it out.  When I repowered the 3310H, I managed to get a NOS wiring harness, and I shorted out the PTO safety interlock.  There's an argument to be made of dumbing down the Sovereign to be simpler, like the 3310H.  OTOH, the safety features do have value.

I just got off the fone with Brett, BTW.  Fun to chat tractors!

Many thanks to all for your input!

I've got a fair amount of head scratching to do on the electrical stuff.  Not to mention the mechanical stuff!

 

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Bill725

Please see the attached engine dimensions for the B&S 16HP, Kohler Triad and Command. Note both the Triad and Command flywheel to driveshaft dimension may not be correct because it does not show the driveshaft aluminum adapter. Notice the B&S and the Command have the same crankshaft heights and bolt directly to the frame. Whereas, the Triad is 0.875" shorter and bolts to a riser plate. A Command should bolt to the existing holes in the frame.

B&S 326430 16HP.jpg

Kohler Triad.jpg

Kohler Command.jpg

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JohnFornaro

Yikes!  Will have to study those Triad pix.  Mine is an 18HP; not sure if there are significant dimensional changes.

Anyhow, on hte driveshaft.  Best I could figure, the Triad [existing] driveshaft is 17 1/4" long, outside of "tee" to outside of "tee".  I have "in stock", a driveshaft that is 20", outside of tee to outside of tee.  The existing setup has the keyed slot hingie attached to the BGB; so does my "in stock" shaft. I also have both thin plastic couplings on the instock unit. And all the bolts.  I got the setup from ebay a nubmer of years ago.  I tend to go with the offerings that have more "stuff" included.

The wiring diagram is inaccurate.  Too complicated to talk about here; am thinking of a 3310H setup, with mods for ammeter and some of the interlock thingies.

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, JohnFornaro said:

Yikes!  Will have to study those Triad pix.  Mine is an 18HP; not sure if there are significant dimensional changes.

Your Triad sits on a plate, remove it and you're good to go with a Briggs cast iron single cylinder (or Kohler Command) as far as crankshaft height goes.  A pic of the plate:

IMG_7620.thumb.JPG.0939f6fb851cb702c4ef2b100f5c2b99.JPG

The plates are somewhat in demand for a Harbor Freight Predator engine conversion; should be able to sell it.  

1 hour ago, JohnFornaro said:

I have "in stock", a driveshaft that is 20", outside of tee to outside of tee.

That's close to the "no rubber coupling" Briggs single cylinder driveshaft for a 7100 series tractor which measures 20-7/8".   You may have to drill new holes, but hopefully you'll be OK with that 20" driveshaft.  

 

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TimJr
On 12/8/2019 at 11:22 AM, JohnFornaro said:

My '92 Triad equipped Sovereign, which I've owned since '03, has finally died. 

I have to ask, what is the manufacturer number of your tractor?  A 1992 Sovereign didn't have a Triad originally.  This will be very important for you to track down the correct original wiring diagram so you know what you have to work with while adapting to the replacement engine.

Basing a Simplicity off a year can be iffy and misleading depending on what you are using as the source for the "year" of the tractor.  Simplicity didn't really officially use model years and there are examples out there of factory literature conflicting each other for "year".  The manufacturer number is by far more important, and will then allow other information to be learned about a given machine, including the possible years it was built and which engine it was originally fitted with by using factory literature.  Presuming an engine is original to a tractor, using an engine date code can help to narrow things down, or prove a mis-match.  You can figure an engine would be at least a couple months, if not 6 months older than the tractor itself.  Factor in any time sitting at a warehouse and sitting at a dealer and you could arrive at a possible "year".   

Many people will call a tractor a "year" based on when they bought it.  It wouldn't be a stretch to say a tractor was actually built/assembled by the factory in December 1992.  Warehoused for a couple months, shipped to a dealer, sat for a month, got assembled and put on display.  Now we are in 1993.  However - it didn't get sold until April of 1994 when it went on sale to get rid of aged inventory.  What "year" is the tractor.  Most buyers will say it is a 1994.  If he knew it was "last years" model, he might call it a 1993.  But, it was built in 1992.  Anyway - that is why using model years for our tractors should only be a secondary identifier to the manufacturer number and model.

A Sovereign from 1992 would be called a 17GTH-L and would have been the last with a KT17 Kohler flathead twin.  This would have had white wheels.

From 1993 to 1997 a Sovereign was 18hp and had a Kohler Command CH18 OHV twin.  Not sure about the 93/94, but by 1997 Sovereigns had the dark silver wheels.

From 1998 to 2000 the Sovereign came with the TH18 Kohler OHC Triad engines.

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maxwood

Hello, Make sure that you save the engine mounting plate, from the triad . It can be used for a kohler , briggs or honda or predator  repower. or can be sold for $35 -$50

 

Thanks Ken in Mi

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ShaunE
12 hours ago, TimJr said:

From 1993 to 1997 a Sovereign was 18hp and had a Kohler Command CH18 OHV twin.  Not sure about the 93/94, but by 1997 Sovereigns had the dark silver wheels.

I have heard this before but looking for some clarification.  

The 75th Anniversary was a 1997 model year based on literature & houses a Kohler TH18.  Based on that, I've always figured that 1997 was the first year of the Triad & the only year of any "Gray Framed" Sovereign.

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PhanDad

@TimJr,

I feel as @ShaunE does that 1997 model year Sovereigns came with the Kohler OHC Triad engines.

BUT I've never been able to find any documentation to back it up. 

I have 1996 and 1998 (by copyright date on back page, nothing anywhere else that states the year) Simplicity catalogs.  The 1996 catalog shows and lists a Command engine for the Sovereign and the 1998 catalog shows and lists the OHC engine.  

And just to add to the confusion, here are Contents pages from the 1997 and 1998 Simplicity "Electrical Information Manuals":

5defce732f109_Sov1LateModel1997ElectricsContentsa.JPG.4839dc9960d500a2506145314234064c.JPG

5defce7541448_Sov1LateModel1998ElectricsContentsa.JPG.83047bc8e87da205b772541ddd3b76a8.JPG

All "Sovereign" MFG#s listed in the "1997" Manual (Index 1996-1997) are Command powered per the parts manuals.

Similarly, all "Sovereign" MFG#s listed in the "1998" Manual (Index 1997-19987) are OHC Triad powered per the parts manuals.  

Since the famous Simplicity tractor parade with all the dealers, etc riding Anniversary OHC Triad powered Sovereigns was held in September 1997, the OHC Triad Sovereign existed in 1997 - BUT might they have been "1998" models? 

So the bottom line is, I'm still looking for proof of what engine was in a 1997 model year Sovereign.  You would think someone would have a 1998 dated Catalog. 

The one thing I'm sure of, throughout the country various dealers were selling Sovereigns with both Command and Triad engines in 1998.   

 

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PhanDad
7 hours ago, PhanDad said:

I feel as @ShaunE does that 1997 model year Sovereigns came with the Kohler OHC Triad engines.

BUT I've never been able to find any documentation to back it up. 

Thanks to @BLT, here is some Simplicity documentation that supports @TimJr's position.  It's from his Simplicity Engine Info manual from 2005.  The 1997 and 1998 engine listings:

 5df03e661e280_Sov1SimplicityEngineInfo1997Sov.JPG.5ff4f18cc16ad73eaebbe9fd1c11369d.JPG

5df03e683f2e6_Sov1SimplicityEngineInfo1998Sov.JPG.d0a0589996932751781ff75656a2966c.JPG

PS - I'll upload the Engine Manual to the "Download" forum tomorrow.  

 

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Chris727

I was under the impression that the 75th Anniversary model had the new, award-winning engine as a "showcased"  or " special feature " and they (regretfully) integrated it into the next two years of the tractors

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ShaunE

That could be.  

The other differentiating factor is the regular Sovereigns with the "Gray Frames".  As far as I have seen,  they were also only for the 1997 model year which also housed Triad engines from the ones I've seen that had not been re-powered.

I know it's difficult to argue with the literature, but most of us here can remember & saw these tractors in dealerships during this time.

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ShaunE
9 hours ago, PhanDad said:

Since the famous Simplicity tractor parade with all the dealers, etc riding Anniversary OHC Triad powered Sovereigns was held in September 1997

I have an original Milwaukee Journal from that parade.  It's dated August 19th 1997.

It was given to me by the dealership when I purchased mine.  I also have the original dealer invoice & the dealer cost of that tractor was $5500.00 at least to the dealership mine was at in Indiana.

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SmilinSam

I bought a new massey version in somewhere arouund April or May of 1998. It had the triad and a gray frame & deck. Could not venture a guess as to how long it had sat in the dealers showroom before I bought it. It also had factory power steering.

Edited by SmilinSam

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TimJr

@PhanDad that engine guide is the reference I used.   I would have to dig for it, but from memory I have a Spring 1997 dealer sales manual, and it lists my 1692798 18hp Command powered Sovereign with silver/gray wheels and black frame.

I have the paperwork, and would need to find it to be able to say 100%, but I am the second owner and I still know the first owner and I worked at the dealership when it was originally sold.  All in 1997 as far as I remember.  Pretty sure it was ordered for the customer since it has power steering.  I don't believe a PS model was kept in inventory at that time.  But again - it may have built in 1996 and sitting in a warehouse until ordered in by the dealer.  I haven't decoded the Kohler engine number to see if it is a 1996 vintage.

 

The Simplicity Tractor and Attachment By Year guide lists the 1692798 as 1996-1997.

I knew the 1997 Simplicity Electrical Information Manual lists 1692798 as 1996 - 1997.

Just goes to show that Mfg # is what matters.  I don't believe Simplicity ever had a real model year and likely introduced changes as they happened, not necessarily every September or something regularly scheduled.

100_4460.JPG

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TimJr

I have read/heard that all of the "2000" model year Sovereigns were all leftovers from 1999.......that no production of a Sovereign tractor occurred in the year 2000.  Can't prove it though.  The 1999 and 2000 year Sovereigns are the same mfg. number.  We all know that there were many Sovereigns, including the older 75th Anniversary editions still in dealer showrooms for many years after 1999/2000.  

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TimJr

Wasn't there a change with the last of the Sovereigns and the fuel tank was clear or opaque rather than black?  My 1692798 has a black tank.  Seems like the seat and steering wheel may have also been different on the last ones/Triad powered ones (not counting the 75th) compared to my Command powered one.  I suppose looking at a parts diagram would confirm that........

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