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mike_sdak

917 PTO slipping

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mike_sdak

So I've been running my 917h with the HD tiller, tilling the garden.   The first tilling a few weeks ago was fine.    The last time, it would bog down and stop turning if the soil was too hard, causing me to lift the tiller slightly to keep going.  The center PTO area made a slight grinding noise when it wasn't turning.  

I thought the belt was slipping or perhaps there's something wrong with the PTO clutch? 

I plan to take a look at it tonight, but thought the experts here would have an idea to point me in the right direction. 

 

 

 

Edited by mike_sdak

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SmilinSam

Heres a couple of problems I have encountered in the past

 

Lining on the clutch cap could be worn out

When this happens theres nothing for the clutch body to grab. Sometimes it will dig into the metal on the cap. A worn lining will also act like a slipping belt. Most common ailment.

Spring behind the clutch could be broke

This just results in not enough pressure to push the clutch into the cap. Can act like a slipping belt too. If this is the case you should also notice less resistance than usual when shutting the pto off.

Sheared  cap key

Can also act like slipping belt and make noise. Rarely happens though. Has a tendency to wreck the end of the gearbox cross shaft if it does.

Edited by SmilinSam
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mike_sdak

So I finally got around to taking the cap off the assembly.  Impact wrench worked wonders. Here's a few pics of the shaft and cap.   I'd say the lining is maybe 1/16" thick, ballpark.

Does it look like it needs replacing?    Any thoughts on the best way to remove and replace it?   I do have a leather belt on hand, prob 1/8 or slightly thicker.

IMG_20201121_104740811.thumb.jpg.c63046ebdcebcade5824190019c86dda.jpg

 

 

 

IMG_20201121_104657456.jpg

IMG_20201121_104733708.jpg

IMG_20201121_104736982.jpg

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SmilinSam

Yeah, looks like theres not enough material left to grab the cone and  keep the end of the cone from contacting the cap.

There are/were guys in here that talked of adhering a strip of leather belt into place, but I've never done it. I used to have plenty of spare caps from junk tractor back in the day to use as replacements.

Try a search for pto caps and see what turns up.  I'll look too, but cant right at the moment...

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PhanDad

A pic of a new unused OEM clutch bell for reference:

IMG_0418.thumb.JPG.4469dc7c45cb79d0bb2c0623c1547daa.JPG

 

And it looks to me the snap ring has come out of it's groove:

image.png.f695100248c33f34ff7a8cb7cd346899.png 

Use an old school wooden 2 handle carpenters clamp to compress the spring so you can the the ring back in the groove.  More detail is available in the Large Frame Service manual.  

 

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ShaunE

It looks to me like your retaining ring on the shaft has come out of it's groove holding the the hub in the engaged position when the clutch is disengaged.  That may me part of your wear problem.  @BLT has the name of a place in WI that will reline your old cone clutch if you you don't want to purchase a new one.  I don't know the cost bit I'm sure he will chime in.

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BLT
12 hours ago, ShaunE said:

It looks to me like your retaining ring on the shaft has come out of it's groove holding the the hub in the engaged position when the clutch is disengaged.  That may me part of your wear problem.  @BLT has the name of a place in WI that will reline your old cone clutch if you you don't want to purchase a new one.  I don't know the cost bit I'm sure he will chime in.

his is I think where I had some done about 5 or 6 years ago, Then it was $35.00 ea plus frt both ways .What is/was done is remove the old lining, clean the surface and the glue in 8   pcs of new lining  and bake them on over night . I don't even know who you talk to now. M y guess now pick up the phone and call.
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mike_sdak

Thanks guys, I'm thinking you're right about the spring clip too.    

 

The repair manual describes PTO repair procedure, with step 6 calling for removal of the adjacent pulley assembly. Is this necessary to have enough room for the clamp?

 

I'm assuming the spring clip restrains the cone so it doesn't advance too far on engagement? Mine moves like 5/16 or so when engaged, I think it's supposed to be 1/8"per service manual?      

 

By the way, is there a way to lessen the force needed for moving the lever? Mine takes a fair amount of effort.

 

I think I'll try the leather and 2 part epoxy in the interest of time and money, unless that is best avoided altogether.

 

 

 

 

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Bill725
10 hours ago, mike_sdak said:

I'm assuming the spring clip restrains the cone so it doesn't advance too far on engagement?

The retaining ring locates the PTO clutch end cap on the shaft. The retaining ring fits into the end cap counterbore shown in above picture. 

10 hours ago, mike_sdak said:

By the way, is there a way to lessen the force needed for moving the lever?

The force is due to the spring load and the disengagement mechanism. In the operators manual, the PTO is to be adjusted so there is 1/8" travel from engagement to disengement.

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PhanDad
4 hours ago, Bill725 said:

The retaining ring locates the PTO clutch end cap on the shaft. The retaining ring fits into the end cap counterbore shown in above picture. 

Edit: Upon looking at the pics posted below by @Bill725 and thinking about it more, the following is incorrect:

I don't agree.  The end cap counterbore bottoms out on "step" at the end of the BGB cross shaft. It can be seen in Mike's pic from above:

image.png.f695100248c33f34ff7a8cb7cd346899.png

 

Edit: I think this is still correct:

The snap ring should be in a retaining area in the end of the pulley:

image.png.d59bfffeea4a9081b68e9148d1fa2037.png

From the install section:

image.png.2150b30577a675ef813b1a4e0f5de35b.png

Edit:  Going to get some spare parts and check out how this exactly works.  ATM I'm thinking the pulley just holds the snap ring in place until the cone cap is bolted on and pushes the pulley back.  So in operation, the pulley should never touch the snap ring.  Need parts in hand.

Edited by PhanDad
Edited 3 places for correctness

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PhanDad
12 hours ago, mike_sdak said:

The repair manual describes PTO repair procedure, with step 6 calling for removal of the adjacent pulley assembly. Is this necessary to have enough room for the clamp?

It's been awhile since I last removed a cone clutch assembly.  If I remember correctly to completely remove the assembly, the adjacent pulley assembly has to come off, but I don't remember what it interferes with.

If you can get the clamp on the pulley and compress it, I see no reason to remove the adjacent pulley assembly.  

12 hours ago, mike_sdak said:

By the way, is there a way to lessen the force needed for moving the lever? Mine takes a fair amount of effort.

I could be the pulley is slightly cocked since the snap ring is partly out of the groove.  Or lack of shaft/pulley lubrication?  Once the ring is back where it belongs, see if the force is more reasonable.  If it isn't, you could consider removing the entire assembly and clean up/lube the sliding areas.  But getting that key out can be a real PIA.  

12 hours ago, mike_sdak said:

I think I'll try the leather and 2 part epoxy in the interest of time and money, unless that is best avoided altogether.

Not going to use the cap from the 712?

Let us know how it turns out. 

 

 

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PhanDad

@Bill725,

Very interesting.  I now believe I'm incorrect in what I posted above.  (Above edited )

I'm going to have to investigate further to increase my knowledge.  

Unfortunately I'll probably forget the new knowledge down the road.

Edited by PhanDad
General edit
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