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smalljob

B12 came home

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smalljob

Local guys is cleaning up his yard. had 10 -12 old iron hanging around. 2 interested me. What I think is a 1964 Simplicity Landlord and a B12. I ended up picking up the B12, but might still go back for the Simplicity. Price was right. The engine did turn over with some difficulty by hand. Barely any oil in it so before I attempt anything I need to add a little anyway. Someone welded some brackets on the front that I will need to cut off and missing a fuel tank, and two of the hood knobs, but I think everything else is there. Will see. a couple of what look like John Deere 50lb wheel weights. Anxious to start playing with with over the next few months in between other things.

Because of the two flat front tires I had to pull it off the trailer with my 332 while using the winch to hold it back from running down the ramp. Probably the first time it has been under a roof in many many years. I wish I had taken a picture of it when I first saw it. It was covered with vines  and other growth.

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Chris727

Good find. Looks like a 14 to 16 hp Briggs from a Gilson-built tractor was likely transplanted into it at one time. It has their lower mount starter generator brackets and has the oil fill through the dipstick. All of this can be changed back to AC/Simplicity spec. parts fairly easily if desired. 

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smalljob

I am still learning about the B12 so all your comments are very much welcome. I would be interested in getting it back more towards original where possible. Chris, can you point me towards where I can research your points on the engine? Slow me down pulley??? Guess I will need to look that up also.  No idea what that pulley was for. Maybe homemade lift for a plow????

Had a couple of hours today so I did a few things all turned out promising.

1) I got the old plywood based seat off and thankfully no terrible rust. Looks like surface only. That is a plus.

2) The seat parts are not OEM, but I think they have the bones where I could make something up that would look pretty good if I am unable to find the correct frame. I have seen that the reproduction cushions are available.

3) I cut off the angle iron. It is 3/8 think and I did it with a cut off wheel. When the time comes I will take the axle off and cut/grind down the remainder. Thoughts and suggestions on how best to do that appreciated. I don't own a plasma cutter.

4) I pulled out the plug and poured in some mystery oil and after a few minutes the engine was turning over freely and the valves are moving. It does not feel like anything is broken. It feels and sounds normal. But it looks very rusty so I will most likely pull the head before trying to start it.

 

Here are a few pictures.

 

Thanks

Bill

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smalljob

I noticed something this morning which does not make any sense. Everything I have read this tractor should not have a starter solenoid. Basically the the push button takes the place of that. If you look at the picture I have attached you will see one mounted on the firewall. Have not had time to dive in detail, but a quick look at the wiring goes like this. The key switch goes the trigger point on the solenoid. Of course one side of solenoid goes to battery. The other side instead of going to the S/G it goes back to the push button and then from the push button back to the S/G??? I am thinking of removing the solenoids the circuit would be 12V into push button and then out to SG. 

 

Thoughts?

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bowhunt4life

The B12 had a standard 5" rear transmission pulley. When owners wanted to change the ration Simplicity/Allis came  out with 8" and 10" pulleys to slow down the gearing. This helped when rototilling and snowblowing. Simplicity/Allis went even further with a HILO Gear that did the same thing as the 8" and 10" pulleys but with the HILO Gear all you had to do was shift a lever to go from Hi gearing to Lo gearing. The chrome seat tubing and the black flats stock brackets are original that you have are not B12. The B12 seat pan is missing as well. If you want to go back to original seating I'd put a want ad in the classifieds. Here is a picture of the seat pan and tubing along with a finished seat. I also included a picture of the HILO Gear unit.

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smalljob

Thank you very much. Now I understand the speed pulley comment and I appreciate the information on the seat as well. Where did you get the cushions made up?

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smalljob

I went to pull the head and two of the head bolts were rounded. Thankfully a good pair of vise grips worked to get them out. Glad I pulled the head. The exhaust valve was stuck open. Some mystery oil and a few taps and it now moves but it is not seating all the way unless I push on it so I will pull the valves and clean them up. So now I am trying to figure out what engine I have. I think it is a 300,xxx series based on the bore size. Which I guess makes it a 16hp?? With my rudimentary tools. Looking at parts catalog the block and dip stick configuration looks like mine, but the head gasket not so much. Notice on mine the sides have the holes on the outside, but the parts catalog shows them on the inside??? The top holes and the bottom hole are correct.

I don't have a problem putting it back together for now with the old head gasket and replace the two worn head bolts with some grade 8, but if I need more parts it would be nice to know what I have. There are no marking on the tins at all.

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PhanDad
12 hours ago, smalljob said:

The key switch goes the trigger point on the solenoid. Of course one side of solenoid goes to battery. The other side instead of going to the S/G it goes back to the push button and then from the push button back to the S/G??? I am thinking of removing the solenoids the circuit would be 12V into push button and then out to SG. 

 

Thoughts?

Very Odd.  The OEM key switch grounds the engine magneto to kill the engine.  Doesn't make any sense if the key switch you describe is still OEM - the solenoid wouldn't be energized. 

However, if the key switch has been changed so that it feeds +12v to the solenoid, then my guess is the push button "starter" switch is stuck closed, hence the need for the solenoid.  The PO wired the solenoid into the lead from the battery to the push button switch as the easiest place to wire it in.  

If the above is correct, what kills the magneto?  Is there a second switch?  The wiring of the old FDT tractors was pretty simple:

image.png.473014af49ee9ed898cfca148b39080d.png

The above is from the B-1, etc parts manual available in the site's Downloads Forum:

https://simpletractors.com/files/file/32-b-1-10-12-big-ten-tractor-parts-book/

As to the engine model, did you look on the blower tin on the side under the carb?  Some of the early Briggs engines had the info stamped there rather than on top.  

 

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Bill725

Measure the cylinder bore. The 12 & 13HP, 30 CI engines have a standard bore size of 3-7/16". The 14, 15 & 16HP, 32 CI engines have a standard bore size os 3-9/16. The differences between the 30 and 32 CI engines is the bore size and cylinder head. The 12HP also has an external balancer and cover on the PTO side. I am not sure of the 13HP, as I have never seen one. Pistons for the 30 CI engine are very hard to find. But, the 30 CI engines can be bored oversize to accommodate the 32 CI piston. The 30 CI cylinder head cooling fins are all the same height, whereas the 32 CI cylinder head has raised fins.

The head gasket that you have pictured on top of the block is the old "Made in the US" head gasket. The new style is "Made in China." Make sure the head gasket ID and the bolt hole pattern match the block.

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bowhunt4life
20 hours ago, smalljob said:

Thank you very much. Now I understand the speed pulley comment and I appreciate the information on the seat as well. Where did you get the cushions made up?

I got the cushions from Speer in Colorado but they are no longer in business.

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smalljob

Thanks guys, yeah it is a 30. Hope to play around some more with it later this afternoon. We had the remnants of that storm come through here Tuesday night. I did some yard cleanup yesterday morning and need to try and finish that up today. This is my cup of tea. I really enjoy working on this old iron. I find the challenges stimulating. 

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smalljob

Not much time today, but I did drop the carb, no intake manifold gasket. Removed the breather and did a quick valve lash check. Exhaust looks fine at about .017 but the intake is way out at around .015. Don't think lapping will make up for that. According to what I found it should be .007 -.009. Not going to through money at this yet until I am sure it will run. So I will pull the valves and clean everything , lap them and make sure they operate properly. The cylinder doesn't look  bad so optimistic. I will drain what oil is in there and replace it and button up the head and move on to see if I can start it.

 

Stay tuned..

Bill

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Chris727

These old Briggs will typically run surprisingly well even when the cylinders have excess wear. It is possible that when they swapped in that engine, some of the  wiring was also swapped in from the Wards. Here is the approximate model of tractor the engine and starter setup appear to be from:

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As @bowhunt4life pointed out, the seat frame is not for a B-12. The brackets and armrest rail are for a "flat hood" tractor (1967-1/2 to around 1970) 

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Picture of several of my "flat hoods" a few years ago.  

 

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smalljob

Glad I don't have much hair because working with these keepers would have had me pulling it out. I have worked on many Kohler and Tecumseh engines, but never had so much trouble getting the keepers back in. Used magnet, grease and all the usual trick. Just seems to be a very tight area.

You can see the inside area of the exhaust valve. A lot of rust. Good thing the muffler is pointing down, I guess it could have been worse. Guessing because the engine stopped with the valve open. Got everything cleaned up and lapped. After cleaning all the carbon and lapping the intake did settle down a bit. It is now about .011 -.012 and I have the exhaust right at .017. The cylinder looks ok and no wobble with the piston. Drained the oil which was quite black and muddy. I oiled the valve stems and put some on top of the cylinder and cranked it a few times to get the cylinder walls lubed. It turns nice and smooth. Got the head back on with the original head gasket for now and all torqued.

I need to make an intake gasket and get the breather back together. No idea what condition the carburetor or points are. There are a lot of wire nuts in the electrical harness...... One step at a time.

 

Oh yeah I saw the big hole inside the breather box ( not sure what it is called) and I just knew I would drop one of the keepers down it so I stuffed it with a paper towel. Glad I did, the number of times I dropped them trying to install them.

 

Bill

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smalljob

Pulled the carb off today and attempted to open it up to clean it. The main jet was badly corroded and I was unable to get the emulsion tube out. I have screw driver filed down to fit snugly, but no movement and I didn't want to destroy anything. The high speed needle also has a slight ridge. I cleaned it up and sanded it with 1500 to get it as true as I could. I also pulled the idle needle and blew everything out with compressed air and carb cleaner the best I could. Unknown is the integrity of the float. I did try blowing through the fuel inlet and I was able to and then when I flipped it over, I was not able to. So in theory it is working assuming the float itself is not damaged. And of course even though I was able to blow air through the passages no way of knowing if any of the holes in the that emulsion tube might be blocked or restricted.

Any suggestions on getting the tube out? I hate to trash the carb because of that.

 

Tomorrow I think I will tackle the electrical and see what I can cobble together at least as an interim solution.

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smalljob

Worked on the wiring. Goal was to get rid of user modifications and get it to crank. As you will see in the short video I tried to see if there was spark also, but there is none. I have not even opened the points box.

I am pretty sure I have it back to original wiring based on the schematics. I have not worked on the key switch circuit yet. The one that was in there was not OEM as it had 2 tabs and was wired to the solenoid. I have a parts Broadmoor and I stole the key switch from that along with the fused wire that goes to the ammeter. I removed the push button switch and cleaned everything. It looks like they had a single pole single throw switch in there along with the incorrect key switch which was broken. 

I have included a picture of a wire going to the points and I suspect on to the magneto. I am guessing that is where I should wire in the key switch. The key switch case takes the tab to ground when it is turned. Also how is that connection suppose to be made near the points. Obviously that piece of plastic is not OEM. It is used as an isolated/ connector I think.

Thanks

Bill

P.S. don't get seasick looking at the video!!!

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Bill725
16 minutes ago, smalljob said:

Also how is that connection suppose to be made near the points. Obviously that piece of plastic is not OEM.

W/ points cover use B&S P/N 66895 or w/o P/N 690584.

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