electric tractor needs help! 3415H axle tube compatible with 712?

[mikeandlina]

Ugh, I am in the middle of my retaining wall project and  my nice electric tractor/loader now has no connection to the axle after 'plink' sound... I still have a unit of river rock, a unit of dirt and a big pile of gravel to move - bummer.

The left side housing rotates under power but does not connect to the axle.  Off the ground the wheels spin together freely, differential seems to be working if I hold one wheel.  I am assuming it is the axle housing?  

I saw a post on the forum about replacing the housing.  Any idea if the housing from the 712 that I have sitting around is compatible?

Can I grab the whole gear case and mount my perfectly good hydro on it without having to crack any seals?

I don't know the status of the drive system on the 712, otherwise, I guess swapping the whole backend from BGB back might be the quickest fix?

Any thoughts?

Mike

[SmilinSam]

3415 is a vickers transmission, while the 712 is a Sundstrand. Apples and Oranges as far as a direct swap goes. The Transmissions are different and the control systems are different. As to the compatibility of the axle tubes goes from vickers to Sundstrand goes, I dont know.

If your 712 is complete, you could swap the transmission and control systems.... However, to do that you would have to grind/cut the sleeeve from the 712 frame that the control lever sits in and install(weld) that into the 3415. You would have to drill/cut with holesaw a hole for it into the 3415 frame in the same location as it is in the 712 frame.So, measure carefully before and cutiing/grinding gets done to the 712 if you choose to do all this. You would also have to locate the safety switch  from the 712 into the 3415 in the same location as well and wire it in. You can just re route the safety wire on the 3415 safety switch. The locate the lever guide from the 712 to the 3415 in the same location it was in.

I have done this operation on several older 3300 and 3400 tractors, including the 3310H sitting here now.To me some cutting, drilling, wrenching, and welding is easier than splitting a couple of transmission cases to swap axle tubes.

Edited September 21, 2020 by SmilinSam

[PhanDad]

What Sam said and 

4 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

As to the compatibility of the axle tubes goes from vickers to Sundstrand goes, I dont know.

REVISED RESPONSE (copied from a post I made earlier):

There are different axle tubes.  The hydro ones (Vickers and Sundstrands) are almost the same, but I believe key sizes were changed.  A quote from Al ('99 post):

"There was a change in the axle tube in the early 7100 production. Mainly the keyway and the length of the key. This reduced the tendency for stress cracks to run out from the keyway and cause the tubes to break. I believe the new tubes have the change in them now."  

When I was looking for an axle tube for my Homelite Vickers hydro I did some digging and found there is some confusion about hydro axle tubes - I believe the Vickers hydros , some early 7000 series Sundstrands (such as MFG #1690006),  the newer 7100 series, and the newest "Sovereign" hydros use the same axle tube #1670864 (Vickers part #166066 supercedes to this).  The other Simplicity 7000 series and early 7100 series hydros use a different axle tube (#1651517).  The difference is the key size.   The diesel tractor also had an axle tube that was longer.  

Gear tractor axle tubes are different; I don't know if there are different "sizes".  

Bottom Line you have to figure out which type of tube is in your 712. 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by PhanDad
revised response

[PhanDad]

@SmilinSam, 

As to your Sundstrand swap, I remember reading a thread with pics about one of them - but I think it was in the old site’s DIY section which didn’t make the move to the new site. 
 

I did a quick look in my computer files, but can’t find a copy.  If you saved a personal copy, please consider posting it in the Tech Tips Forum. 
 

[mikeandlina]

Nice!

I know the hydros are different, any chance that the gear case is otherwise compatible.  Aside from the little shift lever on the back, the parts diagrams look the same.  Hard to tell from the diagram, does the hydro just bolt on with the shaft slipping into a spline?  Would this be an easier/quicker fix, or should I suck it up and pull the tube?

I would go for the rear end swap if I knew the 712 hydro was functional...

[PhanDad]

I asked this question and I believe it was @Brettw that said the cases are different (and why).  
 

[PhanDad]

34 minutes ago, mikeandlina said:

Hard to tell from the diagram, does the hydro just bolt on with the shaft slipping into a spline?

Pic of removed Vickers hydro pump:

There is a DIY post by @dave45056 about swapping out an axle tube without removing the tranny from the tractor.  However to gain access to it, you must be a paying member of the club.  

Here's his "regular" post about it:  

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/63278-axle-tube-replacement/

PS - See my revised answer above about axle tube compatibility.  (My mind isn't what it used to be).  

[PhanDad]

1 hour ago, PhanDad said:

I asked this question and I believe it was @Brettw that said the cases are different (and why).  
 

I was half right; if you're interested see this post, at the bottom:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/63011-parts-tractor-or-not/

 

[SmilinSam]

2 hours ago, PhanDad said:

@SmilinSam, 

As to your Sundstrand swap, I remember reading a thread with pics about one of them - but I think it was in the old site’s DIY section which didn’t make the move to the new site. 
 

I did a quick look in my computer files, but can’t find a copy.  If you saved a personal copy, please consider posting it in the Tech Tips Forum. 
 

Had bad luck with photo hosting services till I just started putting them here on this site. So, dont have any copies.  However I do have the converted 3310 plus a original 3415 here that I could take pictures of and do a narration of the operation. I will see if I can work that in when time permits.

[CarlH]

Note the old site is up at simpletractors.org.

[GregB]

This is what I get when using address above and Firefox 70.2.02

 

[PhanDad]

@CarlH,  I get a similar result using Chrome:

And Microsoft Edge:

I've asked before what the old site's IP address is so I can enter it directly, but no one seems to know.  

What browser do you use to get to the old site?  

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by PhanDad
Added Edge screenshot

[mikeandlina]

Thanks for all the info!

I gave up on a quick fix and instead spent the day shoveling gravel, dirt, and river rock - ugh.  Probably only one or two more days of work on this project.  It wasn't so bad and I managed not to hurt myself (I think).  I was still able to move it all with my garden dump-trailer pulled by my electric (of course) Agco-Allis ZT 1438.  I built that thing thing 13 years ago and it is still going strong.  It just has 6 golf cart batteries and a series wound motor with no speed control whatsoever - just the hydros.  Works great and super quiet with the mower disengaged.     

My 712H has the numbers 1690214 and 1379 on the ID plate.  Any thoughts on axle housing compatibility?

I should probably just do the backend swap for now

AND

get a 3415H axle housing from @Brettw (who says he has one that will probably fit).  Hopefully the 712H will be functional enough to get me back up and running and then I can swap the 3415H axle housing as a longer project/backup.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by mikeandlina

[maxwood]

Hello,. Try   simpletractors.net to access the old site

 

Thanks Ken in Mi

[GregB]

[maxwood]

Hello, try this

 

http://www.simpletractors.net/

[GregB]

Clicked on your link and got the same thing I posted above.  @CarlH can you move this part of the string to another thread, so the original poster does not have his post diluted?

maxwood what are you using for browser and settings?

Carl H what are you using to get into old site?

 

[maxwood]

Hello, I am using Google chrome &Windows 10

I tried it on explorer  and it works .

Edited September 22, 2020 by maxwood

[CarlH]

Last time I was there I used Firefox.  Might be a problem with the hosting service.  They have had problems and just did some maintenance work.

[mikeandlina]

Well, I had both tractors on blocks and semi-disassembled and ready for repair and then severed my Achilles tendon playing badminton that evening - ugh.  Now I can't really move either. Sigh.

 

My foot is going to take months, the tractor, however is already back up and running.  

 

It turns out that the 712H axle did indeed have different keyways for the drive gear (everything else is the same).  The drive gear from that from the 712H gear box is quite a bit thicker and has different spacers compared to the 3415H, but the overall stack height was the same (minus one washer, so I just swapped over the whole internal assembly (plus the one extra washer on the left side from the 3415H).  The gear box from the 712H did not have the freewheel lever assembly as on the 3415H, but a quick test showed that everything worked just fine.  So I put it all back together and voila!

 

For now there are no obvious leaks, but I am going to have plenty of time on my hands (off my feet), so will redo the procedure and replace gaskets and seals when they arrive. 

[GregB]

the Sunstrand Hydro that should have been in the 712H should have two pop up valves, when they are depressed it rolls free,  When you start up the tractor valves pop back up.  There should be a vertically traveling latch mechanism right above them.

 

[mikeandlina]

I decided against mounting the whole backend of the 712H on the 3415H (and modifying the control rod) because I had no idea if the 712H was functional.  That was  a good choice.  When I opened the gear case there was a 3/4" length of sheared off bolt and some other metal debris floating around the bottom.

 

Here is what the two axle housings and gear stacks looked like:

 

[mikeandlina]

Well now I don't have any more spare rear axle tubes...

Yeah, I snapped it AGAIN.  I wasn't even pushing it particularly hard.  The first time I had a full bucket and went from backwards to forwards on an incline too quickly - plink.  Ok fine, that was probably avoidable.  This time there was no obvious cause. It failed at the zerks grease fitting, the crack ran right through the center of that hole.  This was the replacement axle housing from the 712.

Anyway, I happened to have a 3415H parts tractor that I acquired last year (good thing), so now it is back to the newer axle housing style. Hopefully this one will last longer!

Edited October 14, 2022 by mikeandlina
Typo

[Bill725]

A used axle tube will have some fatigue. You may want to consider installing a new axle tube. If the new axle tube fails rather quickly, then the electric motor has too much torque for the axle tube.

[maxwood]

Hello, I remember reading (somewhere on this forum) that  for pulling tractor use,

the Pullers would put several muffler clamps on the axle tube to reinforce the tube . 

I also saw that someone with fabricating skills  had built a heavy duty axle tube  one for pulling.

Thanks Ken in Mi