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steve-wis

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steve-wis

Hi all!

Looking at retirement next year, and planning on what the garage should hold after that.  Right now I have 4 tractors and various attachments.  I mow grass in my small yard with a 627.  I blow snow with Agco Allis 918H.  I have my Allis Chalmers T816 for tilling, front blading, and general use.  And then there is the 3112V with loader sub frame but no loader.  My thoughts:

I would like to replace the 627 with a toro zero turn with 32 inch deck, I can't use anything larger in my yard.  Then maybe replace the 918H and the 3112V with a 10 year old or so Legacy XL with blower and cab.  Keep the T816 for eventual restore, also it has the front blade, tiller, deck, and snow blower, I would keep this package complete.  I would be selling the 627 which has a front blade, deck, and 32 inch snowblower.  Also sell the 918H with 42 inch snowblower and cab, also has rear lift and brinly sleeve lift.  Sell the 3112V.  Also have a bunch of parts that would go, all of which opens up my garage some for room to work.

Questions I have are:  How good are the Toro zero turns?  What should I look for in the Legacy if I go that way?  What is the 627 with attachments, the 918H with attachments, and the 3112V worth?  The three tractors all run well, the 3112V has a bit of a rattle in the variable speed pulleys, otherwise all three are in decent shape.  Finally, what will it cost for a decent Legacy XL with 42 inch single stage snowblower and cab, and rear lift so I could use this tractor for plow days as well?

Any advice, info, opinions?  I know nothing about the newer tractors but assume a Legacy XL would be the only model that would be good pulling a 10 inch plow for plow days.

These are just thoughts at this point, I might just keep what I got too, but kicking around the idea of going more modern and opening up some space.

Here is an example of what i might be looking at for a tractor, this one has two stage blower.  

 

Legacy For Sale - Simplicity Legacy Equipment - Equipment Trader

 

Thanks in advance!

Steve

 

Edited by steve-wis
added link to legacy for sale

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Chris727

Toro has many grades of products, from low end box store homeowner products to high end commercial golf-course equipment.  I'm thinking a 32" residential ZT will not be likely to have the longevity of the Yeoman. The weakness, across most brands, in the small residential ZT's is the transmissions. What kind of engine does the machine have? Kohler, Briggs, or a Toro branded Chinese engine? 

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SmilinSam

Dont have any experience with the Legacy XL's, just the older Legacy tractors. That said,  I'm kinda sold on the liquid cooled Kawasaki powered Legacy tractors. Mine has 1500 hours or so. I got it at 1200 hrs or so . When I got it , I put a new oil seal on it and replaced the water pump as preventative maintinance. Its never given me a problem.

If you get a liquid cooled Legacy, you have the option of adding a cab heater into the cooling system. They are nice.

 

 

 

Edited by SmilinSam

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gwiseman

I know nothing about the 0-turn mower but my neighbor found a leftover Skag 36” 0-turn on a dealer lot for a decent $. Looks well built and has a Kawasaki engine (engines made in MO plant?). Anyway his yard is small so he comes down & mows mine once in awhile so he can let er rip. As for sales I sold a 3012v w/bolt deck & round hood tiller for 850 last spring. I looked for awhile and found an (early Legacy) Agco 2025 w/650hr Command. Deck was shot but tractor in nice shape for under a grand. For a loader & 3pt for 1650 so I don’t have a lot invested. If you’re patient you’ll run onto a deal or two. 

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ShaunE

I guess my question is how many machines do you want to have?

I would not own a Toro Z-turn with a 32" deck for quality reasons.  I would own a Scag Z-turn with a 36" deck for quality reasons.

For now, if it were me, I'd ditch the 3112 & T-816 package.  The 918H will do more work more efficiently than the T-816 & tillers & blades can be had for cheap if you need to have those attachments.

That way you will be down to two machines to do all the work you need until you pull the trigger on a new mowing machine.

Legacy XL is a great option to replace the 918H provided you take @SmilinSam's advice & get one with a liquid cooled engine.  I also prefer the Kawasaki.  Tractors can be found at decent prices however attachments, 3-point & rear PTO are not based on what I see if not included.

And finally, If you want to use a Legacy XL for Plow Days, you will need to have @Bill725 chime in as you will need a custom Cat-1 A-frame made to use a Cat-0 12" Brinly plow or some type of Cat-1 to Brinly Sleeve hitch adapter made to use your existing 10" Brinly plow.  Bill can explain this better since he just had one built.

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steve-wis

Well, it seems as the prevailing opinions on Toro zero turns is not very good.  Simplicity has their zero turn that you can get with a 36 inch deck, a bit big but probably doable in my little yard, and the deck is fabricated, not stamped, for only about $250 more than the Toro.  Anyone know anything about these?

The 918 is getting pretty old, and so am I, so I am looking for a tractor basically to last as long as I do, and I don't think the 918 will do that, thus my thinking on upgrading to a maybe 15 years newer machine.  I thought the Legacy XL had a three point option?  I guess i need to look more into what is all available.

Thanks for the imput so far!

Steve

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tripleguy

I went down a couple tractors in order to simplify (no pun) my life. I also wanted to free up space, save time repairing, configuring, etc. Think about what you really need and obtain that. Ditch the rest. Do you need a ride on snow blower or will a walk behind suffice? Do you need a riding mower or will a large deck walk behind work out? I went with a modern unit and enjoy the features. Maybe it won't last 40 years but it doesn't need to. 

My neighbor is a grass man. Cuts 2-3 times a week during WI mow season for an hour and 20 min each time. He's had a Toro zero turn for probably 7 or 8 years now and I don't think he's ever had a problem. I eneded up with a newer Prestige which I really like but its a big machine.

Edited by tripleguy

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SmilinSam
On 11/23/2020 at 5:31 PM, steve-wis said:

Well, it seems as the prevailing opinions on Toro zero turns is not very good.  Simplicity has their zero turn that you can get with a 36 inch deck, a bit big but probably doable in my little yard, and the deck is fabricated, not stamped, for only about $250 more than the Toro.  Anyone know anything about these?

Here is my take on the zero turn mower thing. I wanted to try one out a number of years ago. I bought a Simplicity(Ferris) champion 20/50. Was about the smallest one out there that used individual commercial pumps and motors rather than the cheaper homeowner single unit transaxle setup. You could get them with either 44" or 50" decks. Mine had a 50.

I looked up alot of info, and at the time, the individual commercial motors and pumps had an average life expectancy of around 500-600 hours and each component cost around $500 for the part to replace.Thats not counting labor to replace it. Single transaxle types had around the same hour rating and cost around $1200-$1500 for the unit plus labor.

I bought the Champion used in 2007 or so with around 200 hours on it for around $2400 end of season from a Deere dealer liquidating the years trade ins on Ebay. I mowed with it for several years up to when it had about 500 hours on it. Sold it then to  a guy down the road. He mowed with it for another 200 or so hours before he started replacing the drive components one at a time.

I loved the ZT platform for mowing  and saving time. Not so great for mowing banks because of traction issues.They are great until things start needing replaced. Then the cost factor weighs real heavy. These are machines that you dont want to buy used with any kind of hours on them. You buy them new, and trade them off before the hour rating on the drive system components runs out. Even if you do your own repairs, the cost of the components is horrific in comparrison to the older machines we are used to resurrecting. And.... you cant just  go buy another cheap junker to rob repair parts from in the case of ZT's.

Edited by SmilinSam
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steve-wis

Sam,

My thinking is to buy a new one, either Toro or Simplicity.  My yard will take about 45 minutes to cut, or less, and I mow twice a week thru the summer.  Figuring 30 mowings a year, which is more than I will do, at 45 minutes per cut, i shouldn't hit 500 hours until about 22 years later.  I am now 66 years old.  When I am 88, I am guessing i will pushing up grass, not cutting it.  :)  So this should be a "last one ever" purchase.  I have done a bit more research, both simplicity and Toro have fabricated decks, the toro a 32 inch, the simplicity a 34 inch.  Neither have a mulching kit.  Simplicity is a few hundred bucks more.  I am leaning towards the Simplicity now, but by the time i get around to buying one that may change again.

My bigger conundrum is the rest of the tractors.  The more i read about a non-power steering tractor with a loader the less inclined I am to look for a loader, which means I don't need the 3212V with the sub frame.  I stripped down the tractor intending to put a loader on it so there is no lift lever on it, but the pulley for the deck drive is still there.  I can sell it, with a spare good engine complete and a spare BGB/tranny set up.  I can also sell the 918H with cab, deck, blower, and rear lift.  And, the 627 with deck, push blade, and snow blower will go if I get a zero turn.  I would replace these three with one, hopefully a Legacy XL  with cab and blower and rear lift (3 point?) for plow days.  I would keep the Allis T816 with it's attachments for a restore project after I am retired (end of next year at the latest).  

I would need to find the right Legacy with attachments.  I just saw a sunstar with three point, cab and blower for sale up in Minnesota for $4200 with 20 hp command and about 400 hours.  Another thing to think about!  But I would rather go with a Legacy, newer and more creature comforts.  So, I am just rolling all this around in my head for now.

Thanks for the info on Zero Turns, I never had one and know little about them.

Steve 

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SmilinSam

A few more points to ponder from my own direct experiences.....

I use a sunstar for blade work and 3 point work. Mainly push snow in front of the building. Would never want to mow with one, or use a loader on one. Legacy has much more comfortable platform to ride on  for any length of time. And the Legacy has the foot control hydro  which is way more easy to use a loader with than the sunstar with its right hand lever hydro control. You just cant beat a tractor that has power steering and foot control hydro to use with a loader.

I dont like using a dozer blade on a legacy( early versions, dont know if they improved the foot control system on the xl's or not)). Hydraulics are way to slow in my opinion compared to the Sunstar. Cant run the snow up on the pile while lifting the blade as you go up  on the pile. Just not responsive enough.

If you get into looking at early non xl legacy's, take a jack, and jack the front end up. If the steering/axle components are not religiously greased, the axle and spindles wear excessively. Costs around $500-$600 at a machine shop to rebuild the worn parts.

Watch prices on the Sunstars. Some might seem like good deals for whats in the package, but alot of guys are asking prices that would buy a equal non xl legacy package in great shape. The $4200 you mentioned above is one such case IMO.

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tadams

If your looking at long term and years of use go commercial mower, yes it's more money but the 22 years I mowed cemetery we never had trouble with hydraulic motors. We mowed 30 acres with 2 mowers.

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ShaunE
8 hours ago, steve-wis said:

I would keep the Allis T816 with it's attachments for a restore project after I am retired (end of next year at the latest).

Steve it sounds like you've made a good portion of your decision already.  Everyone has a machine that is near & dear to them & yours is obviously the T816.  Nothing wrong with that at all as it's a very good machine.  So basically you will be selling three machines & buying two machines.  The Legacy XL package with a liquid cooled engine, 3 point hitch, Rear PTO, Front end loader & possibly 4x4 (you didn't mention that as a necessity) kind of seems to me like the direction you are headed.  

I personally would expect to pay between $7,500.00 & $9,000.00 for one set up with all of this including a deck & wouldn't even consider one without a liquid cooled Kawasaki.  Granted I have not looked hard for one of these in a few years but that is what I would expect.  If I was looking for one I would look for one set up with all those things before I started trying to locate the options & purchasing them separately.  Deals can be found & the thrill of the hunt is always enjoyable......for a while.

As far as your Z-turn options, again you already have the decision narrowed down between two.  Warranty should make the final decision for you.  

And upon further conversations with @Bill725 regarding his custom Cat-1 Brinly A-Frame, he only had to have that made to avoid  interference  with the ROPS.  So if the tractor you purchase doesn't have ROPS, you would most likely be able to use a Cat-0 12" Brinly plow & either replace the Cat-0 pins with Cat-1 pins or bush the Cat-0 pins but you will need a Cat-1 Top-link.  You may be able to buy a Cat-0 to Sleeve hitch adapter but you may have a problem using a 10" plow with 12" wide tires which are on all Legacy & models.

I promise the intent isn't to confuse you even though it seems that way.

Edited by ShaunE

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Bill725

The Legacy XL comes in 3 models from the factory, 2WD & 4WD w/o 3-point & PTO and 4WD w/ 3-point & rear 540 RPM PTO. I think you could add the 3-point lift, as it uses the same hydraulic lift for the mower by running a rod to the back to raise & lower the 3-point mechanism. The Legacy XL 3-point is called a modified Cat-1, meaning it is not a true Cat-1, as the amount of lift is less than a true Cat-1. I happen to find this out after purchasing my XL 4WD w/ 3-point & PTO while investigating the purchase of a tiller. Befco manufactures the tiller for Simplicity and the same model Befco tiller is cheaper than the Simplicity, but, the 3-point hook up is located different on the Simplicity model due to the lack of lift. For example, if you have the lift links set in the lower position an aftermarket tiller only clears the ground by 2-3". See the post on My Tractor Forum.

I totally agree with the above comments in regards to a liquid cooled engine. I have the Kawasaki and would only suggest the diesel if it is going to be run for long periods at a time. I refuse to spend that kind of money on a subcompact tractor with an air-cooled engine.

In regards to the snowblower, I think the XL is a 47" 2-stage.

In regards to a FEL, I am disappointed with the load capacity performance from the factory. The load capacity can be increased by increasing the hydraulic pressure from the original 975 PSI to 1200 PSI by shimming the relief valve. I have not done this yet as I just acquired the components for the pressure gauge. The hydraulic pressure cannot increased on the 2WD Models because the power steering cylinder is rated for 1000 PSI. See the post on My Tractor Forum. The combination of 4WD and field tires work well with the FEL. The field tires do not work so well for mowing. I use one of my Sovereigns for mowing.

I did not get the 3-point weight box when purchased. I have filled the rear tires with windshield washer fluid and have 50 lb rear wheel weights. I also purchased a Heavy Hitch Cat-1 receiver drawbar which is capable of adding suitcase weights.

In regards to a moldboard plow, as @ShaunEstated above, the XL has 12" wide rear tires. The dead furrow needs to be at least 12" wide for the RH tire fit into. That means you will need a Brinly, 3-point, 12" plow, which has a Cat-0 hitch. A Cat-0 hitch is 20" wide (lift arm to lift arm) and 12" tall (lift arm to center link) compared to a Cat-1 hitch which is 26.8" wide and 15-18" tall. I believe a Cat-0 hitch will work with an XL without ROPS. I added a ROPS to mine and the added width of the square tubing on both sides of the PTO safety shield and the weld shelf on the mounting plate, which bolts to the hitch, interfered with the 3-point lift arm criss-cross chain forward clevis when using the narrow Brinly Cat-0 hitch. I had to have a wider Cat-1 hitch fabricated to resolve this interference.

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