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Enzos-Dad

My bevel gear box on my 3414s is shot

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Enzos-Dad

After the storm on Thursday I was forced to use my plow only because my snowblower was still out getting serviced. I was using the new plow and things were going well until I heard a grinding noise from under the seat and that was it. The gear no longer turns the belts to the pto or transmission. I’m honestly bummed . I love this tractor. I am not sure if I want to fix it . I feel like it may be time to walk away. Taking the gear bevel box off and fixing it seems like a big project. I’m worried that the rest of the tractor is breaking down. I can’t complain I have used the plow in the yard to clear land and remove snow., I have processed over 25 cords of wood with it, so it owes me nothing ...I am thinking of selling it and starting over with a slightly newer tractor 

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dhoadley

I would think finding a good BGB and swapping it out would be completely doable in a weekend with basic hand tools. I'm not half the mechanic most of these guys are but I think I could get that job done. Sleep on it and I think you may find you want keep her for many more years of service ahead. Good luck, Dave

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Bill725
41 minutes ago, kwt said:

Does a 3400 series have the 3/4" shaft box, or a 7/8" shaft box?

BGB tractors starting with the 3300 series and newer all have 7/8" shafts and bearings. 

Get yours hands on the "Simplicity Large Frame Garden Tractors Service and Repair Manual," which has step by step instructions on removal, disassembly, cleaning, inspection, assembly and installation. You can either pay the $10 club membership fee and download or they are $40 for paper copy.

 

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Enzos-Dad

If I went down this road where would I find the right bvg ..I know there is grinding going on in there so I’m not sure of the extent of the damage. I am not buying a parts tractor my wife would kill me if I brought another one home

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PhanDad
2 hours ago, Enzos-Dad said:

I honestly would not know where to begin with that.. if I could remove the bvg and send it off to be fixed I would 

See this factory video for BGB repair (at 33 min mark):

https://simpletractors.com/videos/view-64-simplicity-service-video-power-steering-rotary-valve-and-bevel-gear-box/

An ad in the classified section might find you a used replacement, which after replacing seals is usually a cheaper way to go.  

First step would be to remove the BGB from your tractor and find out what the issue is.  

 

Edited by PhanDad
added video time reference
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PhanDad
8 minutes ago, Enzos-Dad said:

I am not buying a parts tractor my wife would kill me if I brought another one home

Parts tractors usually don't take up much space.  You strip off the good parts to sell or keep and scrap/trash the rest.  

A fellow remember has an extra back end he was going to part.  Maybe the BGB is available:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/65132-what-to-salvage-on-a-allis-917-rear-end/?tab=comments#comment-519790

 

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deebig

I would remove BGB and tear it down to see what the problem is. It may be something simple, all the bearings and seals are still available. The gears and shafts can sometimes be found on EBAY. I rebuilt mine this past summer with all new bearings and seals and is like new again.

 

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Bill725
4 hours ago, Enzos-Dad said:

.I know there is grinding going on

Drain the lube & pull the back cover off and look inside. If it is grinding, most likely the gears are the cause. All of the big BGB parts are still available. Don't be afraid of coming back for more help.

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Rigger9020

Check for excess side play on the pulley or the cone clutch. Also check the input shaft attached to driveshaft. If neither has play in them I would say you have a better chance of just the gears shelled out. But most of the time oil level was too low and the input shaft bearing goes out. Easy to tell with back cover off, you can see all the gold dust in the oil.

40F37A80-78CD-4EB5-97BD-BF9CE6640242.jpeg

ED2EBD8E-2AE4-4C93-A588-B4A5D5BDA2A5.jpeg

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Rigger9020

Pictures are of 710S with bad Bgb removed. I always pull the cone clutch assembly and belt tensioner, drive pulley first. Then lay the tractor over on right side using floor Jack with timber on floor boards to maintain correct height. Remove pin on shuttle shaft control. Then remove the side plates and disconnect driveshaft. It is not a complicated job at all.

0085E56B-D060-4F3D-B790-F8CB0A617FB9.jpeg

DC651BE1-CA80-41DC-A175-780660DE5A7F.jpeg

BD00F14B-883C-4B53-B06B-E4E6435CF5C5.jpeg

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GWGAllisfan

Never though of laying it on the side...that might be easier. The only time I did one on a tractor that wasn't being fully disassembled I hung the front of it it from the main garage support beam. Was a little tricky to put BGB to frame bolts back in that way, as lining them up is hard. If I remember correctly, I think I started with it slightly low and got bolts started then lifted again.

 

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ShaunE
On 12/20/2020 at 5:11 AM, Enzos-Dad said:

if I could remove the bvg and send it off to be fixed I would 

You can & it will save you the labor cost of having the dealership split the tractor & put it back together if you chose that option.  But I think once you remove it, you'll want to do the box yourself.  The video is a great tutorial.  I had it burned to a CD from a VHS tape & @Talntedmrgreen uploaded it to here.  You should take the time & get a ring pliers for the retaining rings for sure.  It will save you a considerable amount of agony.  Gears aren't cheap & neither are the shafts if you determine they need to be replaced with new.  But in my opinion, the tractor is worth more if you part it out then sell it as a non moving paperweight.  A lot of people don't care for shuttle tractors & others love them.  If you were ever going to consider "upgrading" to a hydro tractor then now is the time as you may not get your $ back if you rebuild the BGB & then decide to sell it depending on what is wrong.

So remove the back cover while it's still in the tractor & using a mirror, inspect the gears to see if it is truly a gear problem.  These are supposed to hold about 16oz of lube.  So if only 6oz come out, then you'll know why there was a problem.  As also stated above, you can look for a used BGB that is still tight for parts. But make sure you don't buy something without knowing what parts you can use.

Edited by ShaunE
Wrong Information Posted
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PhanDad
6 hours ago, ShaunE said:

BUT the cross shaft is different on a shuttle than it is on a hydro.

Original incorrect post:

"Excellent point.  Hopefully the cross shaft isn't damaged.  Not many shuttle BGBs relatively to hydros, that's for sure."

 Edit - I now believe the shafts are the same.  See post below.

 

Edited by PhanDad
Original post incorrect

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GWGAllisfan

How are the cross shafts different?

I'm pretty sure the one I replaced my Shuttle with was from a hydro. Left side should be the same, and the right side is just one pulley on the BGB, so what's different?

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ShaunE
1 hour ago, GWGAllisfan said:

How are the cross shafts different?

I'm pretty sure the one I replaced my Shuttle with was from a hydro. Left side should be the same, and the right side is just one pulley on the BGB, so what's different?

I have been discussing this with @Bill725 since I posted this.  I may be incorrect in that statement.  He has a spreadsheet created for all the different part numbers for these boxes between the 3300, 3400, 7000 & 7100 tractors & the various drive systems & two different hydros that were used in the 3400 series & cone clutch change.  Stay tuned.

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, GWGAllisfan said:

How are the cross shafts different?

I'm pretty sure the one I replaced my Shuttle with was from a hydro. Left side should be the same, and the right side is just one pulley on the BGB, so what's different?

Hmmm,  I might be getting confused with the variable tranny.  

A check of the cross shaft part numbers (3414S&H) confirms you are correct (173966) - the "standard" newer BGB cross shaft.

And I see @ShaunE has replied be for I.

(I will edit my post above)

 

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PhanDad
48 minutes ago, ShaunE said:

I have been discussing this with @Bill725 since I posted this.  I may be incorrect in that statement.  He has a spreadsheet created for all the different part numbers for these boxes between the 3300, 3400, 7000 & 7100 tractors & the various drive systems & two different hydros that were used in the 3400 series & cone clutch change.  Stay tuned.

The cross shaft part number I referenced above (173966) has the long square keyway on the "PTO" side. 

I believe most 3400 series tractor IPLs reference that number.  I believe it's a mistake,  as all 4 ofthe 3400 series tractors (hydros)  I've parted out have the newer shaft with woodruff key.  

However, it might be possible to install the cone clutch "bell" using a standard square key.  The shaft does have the required "snap ring groove" as can be seen in this pic of my Homelite T-12 cross shaft which I believe is original:

IMG_8277c.JPG.aeca7099408e4be06844e20e8de4e9ac.JPG

The above shaft has the small diameter threaded section at the end (7/16-14 threads I believe). 

Looking forward to what @Bill725 's spreadsheet has to say.  

PS - I believe the BGB's used for both the Vickers vs Sundstrand hydros are the same except for the cross shaft PTO end.  That's been my experience.  Now the axle tubes are a different story.   

 

Edited by PhanDad
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Enzos-Dad

I may take it apart this weekend I have time off and look at it..there is also a 7116 for sale around here I may look at. I could still use my plow with it.. My big concern is I’m guessing the shuttle drive mat be on borrowed time as well. I have used this tractor hard for several years . I have used the dozer blade a lot to clear land ..I listed it on Craigslist because I watch 2 very similar Allis tractors and one Simplicity sell for over 1000...I was trying to buy the allis in October. .I didn’t realize you can take the back cover off with out removing the bvg from the frame...

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Enzos-Dad

And not sure if you noticed in the pics but I converted the lights to 12 v led..I’m proud of that..but I am an electrician ..lol

DFEC7BBE-9B73-45A2-9003-80E59A30BEB6.jpeg

Edited by Enzos-Dad
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