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Addicted2Breathing

Why wont you start?!

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Addicted2Breathing
So my old man gave me his old B-10, come to find out it's more of a love child of a Simplicity Landlord and an AC B-10. In any case I gave it a tune up and fluids change. Had it running this summer to mow the lawn and it handled it just fine, tended to run a little rich but whatever. Some fiddling with the carb fixed the pulsing for the most part and it ran pretty good after that.
Started becoming a problem towards the fall as it would fowl the plug within an hour's worth of use, and the pulsing came back. Winter comes and I'm stupid excited to use the snow thrower attachment on it.
 
However it basically will not start. Just sits there and rolls over repeatedly until it floods. Tried adjusting the carb, got nothing, swapped the plug out for a new one, nothing. Swapped the carb out for a brand new one. Still nothing, managed to force it to start with ether once and had it running for about 30 minutes to warm it up and then started to try fine tuning the carb. Haven't had it running since.
 
It's got spark, it has fuel, it's got compression, its got air. But won't even attempt to start, just sits there and rolls over. So at this point I'm at a loss. My dad brought up the timing and that's just left me even more confused cause I didn't touch anything timing related and I can't imagine there is much to mess with on an old single lung Briggs.
 
Any advice or something I'm missing?

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Bill725
13 minutes ago, Addicted2Breathing said:

it's got compression

How much compression?

B&S CI engines have fixed timing and armature bracket should have the mounting screws centered in the armature bracket slots.

Edited by Bill725

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Arc & Chip
  1. If its the B&S 23D, I'm replacing the engine for the same reason. Bought a B 10 in about a hundred pieces two weeks ago. The 23D on mine has an "adjustable" flywheel key. Not their brightest idea (and I'm POLISH!!!). This motor had obviously been apart previously, and I'm just gonna give it a new heart. In short, the adjustable key, is made of relatively light sheet metal (like 16 or 18 gauge). The one on mine had sheared, I've never heard it run, and the previous owner attempted to replace points with electronic control. Prob didn't realize it. But setting the flywheel timing has proven to be more troublesome than I care to get into, especially when I still don't know it will run. I'm gonna get a 10 HP Yanmarneese diesel and retro fit that to mine. Best wishes!
Edited by Arc & Chip

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spi
3 hours ago, Bill725 said:

How much compression?

B&S CI engines have fixed timing and armature bracket should have the mounting screws centered in the armature bracket slots.

Be aware that most of these Briggs engines are easy start engines. They have a bump on the cam just before TDC that releases compression for easier starting. In order to get accurate reading they need to be turned backwards to check compression.

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PhanDad

I've found the Briggs cast iron single cylinder engines to be hard starting in the winter, especially if the temperature is in the 30's or lower.  Mine live in an unheated space, so assuming the engine runs OK in the other seasons (mine do), I've found it very beneficial to preheat the carb area before I try to start the engine.  I use a heat lamp bulb in a "clamp-on" reflector lamp.  I preheat for about 15 minutes.

I believe the issue is the up-draft carburetor getting the cold fuel to vaporize and go up before condensing out on the cold walls.  My old '70's engines have never been touched "mechanically" - so the key might be sheared a bit, or the magneto not quite as strong as new, etc.  But the engines run OK in the warmer months to do the work asked of them.  

A second issue is the S/G needing full voltage to spin the engine over fast enough to start.  A weak battery or dirty cables/contacts make a difference in the cold.  

Give preheating a try and see if it works for you.  Make sure you don't forget you have a heat lamp on the carb.  I'm not sure if a heat lamp could cause a fire if left heating the carb area for along time.  I'm sure it would depend on the physical distance between the lamp and carb and closer warms the carb faster.  But you don't want to press your luck.  

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Addicted2Breathing
13 hours ago, PhanDad said:

 A second issue is the S/G needing full voltage to spin the engine over fast enough to start.  A weak battery or dirty cables/contacts make a difference in the cold. 

I honestly wondered the same thing and thought about attaching a snowblower electric starter setup just for the winter months. I know the generator/starter is a bit aged and doesn't turn the motor over fast, perhaps not fast enough. I will try out the preheating and start looking into a new starter/generator setup. Battery is new and is constantly hooked up to a battery charger/tender so its got the amperage there.

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Addicted2Breathing

There is always plan B, replace the motor with new and improved. Which tends to be abhorrent to the classically inclined but can be entertaining. I am guessing the drive chain can't handle anything above 10 HP? Cause my first thought was to go 22 HP V-Twin https://www.amazon.com/Lifan-LF2V78-2DQS-Industrial-4-Stroke-Electric/dp/B00CYDO39A/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=yanmar+10+hp+diesel+engine&qid=1612881211&sr=8-13

But I could also go diesel https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Agricultural-Machinery/dp/B08W435891/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=yanmar%2B10%2Bhp%2Bdiesel%2Bengine&qid=1612881211&sr=8-6&th=1 and don't look back.

I will keep trying to bring the original back to life but at least I have options I suppose.

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Arc & Chip
1 hour ago, Addicted2Breathing said:

There is always plan B, replace the motor with new and improved. Which tends to be abhorrent to the classically inclined but can be entertaining. I am guessing the drive chain can't handle anything above 10 HP? Cause my first thought was to go 22 HP V-Twin https://www.amazon.com/Lifan-LF2V78-2DQS-Industrial-4-Stroke-Electric/dp/B00CYDO39A/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=yanmar+10+hp+diesel+engine&qid=1612881211&sr=8-13

But I could also go diesel https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Agricultural-Machinery/dp/B08W435891/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=yanmar%2B10%2Bhp%2Bdiesel%2Bengine&qid=1612881211&sr=8-6&th=1 and don't look back.

I will keep trying to bring the original back to life but at least I have options I suppose.

It is my plan to convert my old B 10 to a 10 HP diesel. I have a few projects i need to wrap up first, but will hopefully be performing the transplant in a month or so... I've previously had 3 of those Yanmarneese diesels and loved them! Repowered a Speedex S-17 with one. That pedal was definately much harder to push after that. Keep us posted with what you end up doing! 

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PhanDad
58 minutes ago, Addicted2Breathing said:

I am guessing the drive chain can't handle anything above 10 HP?

 

39 minutes ago, Bill725 said:

Please educate me, what chain drive?

I'm thinking typo -->   drive train.  

Addicted, see this post about some repower thoughts for your tractor:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/65466-re-power/

Although your B-10/Landord tractor should have the "smaller" BGB (3/4" input shaft), I think it would be OK to drop in any single cylinder Briggs (or Kohler).  

As to the engines you referenced, I believe there would be many installation issues to overcome.  But if you have the skills, time, and $$$ anything can be done.   

 

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Addicted2Breathing
1 hour ago, Bill725 said:

Please educate me, what chain drive?

I meant to say "drivetrain" but if the belts and pullies can't handle anything above 10 HP, couldn't I swap them out for chains and sprockets to handle higher horsepower engines?

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CarlH

10 HP is 10 HP is 10HP.   The diesel will likely have more torque than a gas engine.  Belt/pulley setups on large frame tractors easily handle 20+ HP.  Biggest problem will likely be shoehorning the bigger engine into the tractor.

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Arc & Chip
2 minutes ago, CarlH said:

10 HP is 10 HP is 10HP.   The diesel will likely have more torque than a gas engine.  Belt/pulley setups on large frame tractors easily handle 20+ HP.  Biggest problem will likely be shoehorning the bigger engine into the tractor.

Some modifications may be required... 😂

IMG_6989.jpg

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spi

You say you have spark but have you tried a new plug? sometimes they will fire when not in the engine but it's a different story under compression. Once in a while when there is a bad coil they will have trouble starting too.

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GWGAllisfan

Honestly, since you have compression, air, fuel and spark, and you can't even get it to run on starter fluid. I'd seriously suspect  flywheel key.

You have to have all four of those at the same time in the  right quantities

If you have the parts, try an external coil set-up and see if it runs with that. If it doesn't then the timing can be ruled out.

I had a 23D that would show spark on a plug, but even with a new coil would not run. rigged the coil and it ran for years.

 

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MikeES

Besides all the good advise already posted.  As these engines get older and loose compression it is harder to start them.  A trick that I have found is to hold the throttle plate closed against the idle stop screw while running the starter.   

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rockfangd

This may sound really stupid but my first guess is bad fuel.

I swear to the summer blend gas not firing in the cold temps. and vice versa. Has happened more than once.

I mainly say that because you say a shot of ether starts it.

Old or improper blend fuel will run in it but it may not start on it.

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B10Dave

Times 2 on the fuel. Winter gas has more " light ends" that ignite easier. They start blending fuel for the winter in about October so any gas from before that will be summer blend and harder to ignite in colder weather.

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Bluevista
On 2/10/2021 at 11:53 AM, MikeES said:

Besides all the good advise already posted.  As these engines get older and loose compression it is harder to start them.  A trick that I have found is to hold the throttle plate closed against the idle stop screw while running the starter.   

Many thanks, I was ready to post my similar starting problem today,  mostly why it will only start when I hold the plate closed.  I've been trying to figure out for a few years why my never rebuilt '69 Landlord 10 hp engine wouldn't start most of the time,  it's has been no problem since near new otherwise, maybe I have low compression? I use it for snowblowing only so  it isn't started often. I replaced the carb because I did have some surging problems and it had some case damage, new genuine B&S carb , started a couple of times then nothing, surging is gone when it does run though. I got  frustrated and was trying anything,  I was spinning it over  and held the throttle plate lever down to the stop  as said and it started right up, pure dumb luck.  

Edited by Bluevista
elderly
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Addicted2Breathing
On 2/10/2021 at 9:39 PM, rockfangd said:

This may sound really stupid but my first guess is bad fuel.

I swear to the summer blend gas not firing in the cold temps. and vice versa. Has happened more than once.

I mainly say that because you say a shot of ether starts it.

Old or improper blend fuel will run in it but it may not start on it.

See now that kinda rings to me, cause like I said I can get it started with enough ether and it will stay running once started. Its just getting it to sputter and fire up at this point. I will give that a try and see if I can see a change

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Addicted2Breathing
On 2/10/2021 at 10:53 AM, MikeES said:

Besides all the good advise already posted.  As these engines get older and loose compression it is harder to start them.  A trick that I have found is to hold the throttle plate closed against the idle stop screw while running the starter.   

Agreed, I noticed that as well. Could be a good portion of the problem so I will give it a run and see if it helps.

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rockfangd

Diesel has a similar but not the same effect.

Diesel fuel that is not fresh can cause a no start. Like trying to start with kerosene, But if you can get it running it will run on it all day long.

To enlighten this. If you are familiar with diesel and kerosene, you can get a diesel engine to run on kerosene but it will not start with it.

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Addicted2Breathing

Whelp, I got it running!

Long story short I got tired of dealing with it so in a bid to remove a variable I pulled off the ebay carburetor and after using gasket maker and probably breaking the main jet needle I got the old carburetor back onto the engine. After fiddling with the fast and slow jets I got it to start right up!...except that it ONLY runs when fully choked, the moment you start opening up the choke the engine dies. Further more I did NOT know the hollowed bolt for the fast jet is made out of aluminum, that will snap the head right off if you tighten it too much. Soooo I can't open up the fast jet enough to give the engine enough fuel when the choke is opened up without the jet coming out of the carb and fuel dumping out everywhere.

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