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hurleyii

Today's garage cleaning project. K301 to 16hp Magnum

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hurleyii

Ok guys Old Faithful has to get out of garage. Was supposed to be last year's project but didn't happen. But with the loader project she needs to go. Trying to weld in the wind is awful and I'm stuck with daylight hours and these things got to get in service like now. 

Fyi...  I have searched several terms on this but all I've come up with is Magnum to Command or B and S. I can't recall of anyone doing this in the past usually do to the cost of a twin Magnum. 

Details. K301 in Old Faithful went boom after many years of service. Ignition switch is newer. 

Donor engine. 

16hp Kohler Magnum from Sunstar. 

So my question is do I have to change ignition switch, and has anyone already done this on one of their tractors ?  If I do have to change switches does anyone have a part number for the 900/7100 series ? I am assuming I do .  I do have a Duetz 917 with a KT17 engine but based on it's ignition system I assume it's the same as the K301 switch. 

Thanks for all the help guys. Hers a pic of old faithful. 

IMG_20210312_082731.jpg

IMG_20210312_082727.jpg

Edited by hurleyii
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PhanDad
6 minutes ago, hurleyii said:

So my question is do I have to change ignition switch, and has anyone already done this on one of their tractors ?

I believe all Magnums are magneto ignition. 
If so, you need to change the ignition switch. 
You can repurpose the wire that fed +12V to the K301 coil to be the mag kill wire. 

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PhanDad

It looks like "Old Faithful" is a 7112.  This is probably the wiring diagram for your tractor:

image.png.9afd626ab6c2ddea2ab936115d8c7c1d.png

(The above is from the 1990 Simplicity Electrical Info Manual and someone was nice enough to label the wire colors)

This is the Briggs powered wiring diagram (magneto ignition) which is how you want to wire the new switch:

image.png.36e03e72120568239113e1769451b1fe.png

Both switches are 5 pin, but the pin out/function are different.  So you'll need to move the wires in the ignition switch connector to match the "Briggs" switch..  Here's a comparison of the switches:

604badcc875fd_IgnitionSwitchCompare.JPG.d339d2a07c0a4ca217377afa8cea8d6c.JPG

Note there is not "I" (ignition) function on the "Briggs" switch and the "G" (ground) terminal is not shown wired since the switch case is also ground.  

Using Kohler terminal designations, unpin the violet wire from "S" ("start", 12 o'clock), the black wire  from "I" (+12V to coil, 2 o'clock), and the yellow wire from "R" (regulator output, 7 o'clock) from the ignition switch connector.  

 Using Briggs terminal designations, pin the violet wire into "S" ("start", 2 o'clock), and the black wire  to "M" (Mag Kill, 12 o'clock) of the ignition switch connector. The engine end of the black wire should be connected to the "kill" wire or terminal on the replacement engine.

I would pin the yellow wire from into the "terminal board" (regulator output).  This will allow the battery to charge when the ignition switch is "ON" (and engine running); this is easiest.  (And, IMO, has the added advantage that the wire to the voltage regulator isn't always connected to the battery.)  The engine end of the yellow wire should be connected to the +12V output of the voltage regulator of the replacement engine.  

If you don't have a terminal board you'll have to splice the yellow wire into either the "A" (4 o'clock) or "B" (10 o'clock) position.  (The newer model Briggs powered tractors have the regulator output wired to the "A" position.)

The "Briggs" ignition switch from that era is part number is 178280.  

PS - I'd wire the "G" terminal to a good engine ground so as not to rely on the case ground.  

 

 

Edited by PhanDad
Added PS, deleted extra pic
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hurleyii

Here is the switch my dealer gave me. 2nd pic is a diagram I got off Kohler's website. 3rd pic is what I did. So rectifier is wired to A which has continuity in the off position but not in start otherwise I was going to wire it to L but L also has power in the start position. Now I don't see that being an issue unless you guys think it is a problem. If so then I will have to swap it out. Everything has what it's supposed to have other then that. 

IMG_20210312_140119.jpg

IMG_20210312_174425.jpg

IMG_20210312_151121.jpg

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hurleyii

PhanDad

So I have studied the Briggs wiring diagram vs KohlerPowers.comand my ignition switch my dealer gave me,  everything I see that you posted ,and your description of rewire. I have it correct except I purchased a 6 pin switch. Also a current dealer stocked switch along with Autozone and TSC. Although my TSC was currently out of stock but did have a spot for it.  FYI the Autozone switch was 12.99, TSC was 14.99 and B&S part number was 24.99 I used my Agco 1920 to get the part number which has a Command.

Both the old B&S switch and the Kohler part number their site gave me is special order at my dealer and per their computer I’m the last person to purchase a the old B&S switch which I returned cause I owned a K301 . That was actually for Old faithful and when I joined this site. 

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hurleyii

Ok guys I worked on it way longer then I wanted I was hoping I could have it done in a day but I spent about 3 hours drilling and carefully using a dremel on a busted screw for the heat shields out of the cylinder head . So I was able to get that out and save my threads. It kinda works out cause holy heavy engine. No ideal how I picked that up and carried it 30' inside the garage. My stepson will be here this afternoon though and I've been trying to get h onto something and going on 13 this would be perfect as I should have it ready to run. All we have to do is pick it up drop it in and wire the new plug on the engine side, throw in a gas tank and bamb... He can be part of the putting together and seeing something come to life. So I'm excited 

My only concern with the ignition switch I used is a parasitic draw in the off position.  A is what you guys see in the above pic with blue electric wire tape substitute for purple coming from rectifier. 

(A) has continuity in the off position to ground and I believe it was M. Ground wire location has been wired so I can bolt to engine like the Sunstar had. 

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PhanDad

Ignition switch wiring should be so simple, yet it's so confusing due the myriad of switches and different labeling used.  

I also found the Simplicity switch instructions very confusing since they didn't show a pic of the switch you bought.

Your dealer gave you the replacement switch for the type of switch used in the later model twin cylinder Kohler powered Sovereigns.  It's 6 terminal vs 5 terminal.  

Here's the pin out and function of your new switch:

 Command_Wire_Core.jpg.4abd656a1710fc3ef0af3c60bde5aa26.jpg

The "S" (12 o'clock), "B" (2 o'clock), and "L" (8 o'clock) terminal are wired correctly.

If you used the yellow wire to be the mag kill wire, then the "M" (10 o'clock) is also wired correctly.  If yellow is the rectifier output, it needs to be connected to "L" (lights, 4 o'clock). 

The "G" terminal (4 o'clock) is ground and with the new type switches, I believe have to be connected to a good ground since the case is no longer in electrical contact with any of the 5 main pins.  

I see you've responded and will read what you just posted. 

 

Edited by PhanDad
Finished post

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hurleyii
5 minutes ago, PhanDad said:

Ignition switch wiring should be so simple, yet it's so confusing due the myriad of switches and different labeling used.  

I also found the Simplicity switch instructions very confusing since they didn't show a pic of the switch you bought.

@hurleyii - I'm currently working on a response to last night's post.  I believe there are issues.

 

Well lights are wired to L which has power in on and start.

Rectifier is wired to (A) which has continuity in run to B, and then as I stated continuity to G and M in the off position. 

I pulled a brigs switch I found and compared it to your diagram. A on the diagram is L on the switch. 

P.S. I DID NOT FOLLOW INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR SWITCH. THEY ARE SLIGHTLY WRONG. 

Edited by hurleyii

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PhanDad
18 minutes ago, hurleyii said:

Rectifier is wired to (A) which has continuity in run to B,

 

20 minutes ago, hurleyii said:

A on the diagram is L on the switch. 

Still confused.  And I believe the confusion is from the lack of a terminal "key" for the switch you bought and/or possibly your use of the Kohler drawing wiring info.  The Simplicity switch does not have an "R" (rectifier) terminal.  As I stated in my first post, the rectifier lead is either connected to the "B" (battery) or "A"/"L" (accessary/lights) terminal.  

In this pic:

  IMG_20210312_151121.jpg

The yellow wire is connected to what I call the 10 o'clock position.  On the Kohler diagram, this is the "R" terminal, or what I believe is the correct Simplicity diagram it's the "M" terminal.  What does the yellow wire connect to on the engine? 

PS - It appears the wire colors match the marked up diagram I first posted:

Heavy red (battery) 

Violet (start)

White & Red wires (accessory/lights)

Yellow (rectifier)

Black (+12V to coil)

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hurleyii

Black on the key terminal is the ground wire. Blue taped wire is going to accessory which is the Rectifier wire. Start wire is faded red but maybe it was purple. White and red wires are the lights and board and going to the L plug. Yellow wire is going to the Magneto. 

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PhanDad
34 minutes ago, hurleyii said:

Black on the key terminal is the ground wire. Blue taped wire is going to accessory which is the Rectifier wire. Start wire is faded red but maybe it was purple. White and red wires are the lights and board and going to the L plug. Yellow wire is going to the Magneto. 

Thanks for the above post.

I've never seen a 6 terminal switch nor the lettering/purpose of each terminal.  It a shame the pic on its instruction sheet is of a different switch (#1718305).  

Based on your explanation, the "extra" terminal "A", not in the main plug, is a second "accessory" or "lights" terminal.  

 

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hurleyii

The part number of the new switch is the listed part for my Agco 1920. It’s part number is 1687734. It’s designed to replace several switches as it mentions a plastic key switch. However it only has the rewire  instruction for one other switch.  If you go to TSC they have several 5, 6, and 7 pin switches. The boy just arrived so I’m. Gonna eat and then we will go put tins on engine and bolt her in. We should have her running tonight. 

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PhanDad

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm making progress in understanding the "new" switch.  

I was thinking about your statement:

On 3/13/2021 at 11:11 AM, hurleyii said:

My only concern with the ignition switch I used is a parasitic draw in the off position.

Which led me to try and find more info on the switch.  The latest Electrics Info Manual I have is 2003.  In it I found a wiring diagram with a 6 pin switch #1716061 and made this composite:

 

604e3fda43832_IgnSwitch1686734TerminalInfo.JPG.85eff46b7f76be3a9453a04e2b3829ac.JPG

Switch part #1716061 has been superseded to #1686734.  The wire connected to the "A" terminal runs only to the alternator pin of the engine wiring harness.  The wiring diagram is from a Prestige MFG#1694015/6/7.

Based on the connection table, the battery isn't connected to any other pin in the "off" position, so there shouldn't be any draw unless the switch itself is a bit "leaky" to ground.  So no help there.  

 

Edited by PhanDad
Corrected Composite Key

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hurleyii
19 hours ago, PhanDad said:

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm making progress in understanding the "new" switch.  

I was thinking about your statement:

Which led me to try and find more info on the switch.  The latest Electrics Info Manual I have is 2003.  In it I found a wiring diagram with a 6 pin switch #1716061 and made this composite:

604e4033a0480_IgnSwitch1686734TerminalInfo.JPG.c1b56497f0b0156bb6ca2bbaaf6ee8a2.JPG

Switch part #1716061 has been superseded to #1686734.  The wire connected to the "A" terminal runs only to the alternator pin of the engine wiring harness.  The wiring diagram is from a Prestige MFG#1694015/6/7.

Based on the connection table, the battery isn't connected to any other pin in the "off" position, so there shouldn't be any draw unless the switch itself is a bit "leaky" to ground.  So no help there.  

 

Haha success then! That's exactly how I wired the switch.  I noticed I miss stated the part number but your number is correct. 

A is for Alternator ! Why can't they state that in the actual instructions instead of just giving us an (A) 

 

Edited by PhanDad
Corrected Composite Key

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hurleyii

Current progress.  And I pulled Sunstar pto and underneath it says it is a k341 block . This thing is a horse inside this tractor compared to the 301. I didn't realize they where that much bigger.  Driveshaft is good installed and we are looking for the missing new plug for engine side of wiring . If I can find that it's gas tank time. Goal is no matter what it runs tonight so the boy can be a part of bringing a tractor to life.

 

IMG_20210313_165725.jpg

IMG_20210313_165718.jpg

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hurleyii

It's alive! Tested engine harness plug before running tractor and it's correct. So this article should be pinned for future reference for that ignition switch. If it would be preferred I'll write up a simple little article for it. I will retitle main title as a k301 to Magnum repower at least. Depending on tomorrow I will post a video if we can do that on hear. 

IMG_20210313_221213.jpg

IMG_20210313_221220.jpg

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hurleyii

Hey PhanDad thanks for all the help on figuring out and confirming this new ignition switch was wired correctly. I'd of had it but your help is greatly appreciated as heavy as this engine is I sure didn't want to do it a second time to replace a magneto. My back is killing me even with the boys help to pick it up. Can't believe I picked that thing up and carried it 30' by myself when I pulled out of sunstar. Can't wait to drive her today it's been years since the Old Faithful has been running. Felt good to see her running. Electric lift switch is a little sticky at the moment. And I'm going to have to switch mufflers out and change head bolts to the studs for heat shield, and drill holes in top engine cover.

Edited by hurleyii
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PhanDad
11 hours ago, hurleyii said:

If it would be preferred I'll write up a simple little article for it. I will retitle main title as a k301 to Magnum repower at least.

I think that's a great idea.  Publish you article in the "Tech Tips" forum.  

I'll post the replacement switch pin info also.  

10 minutes ago, hurleyii said:

I sure didn't want to do it a second time to replace a magneto.

That's for sure.  I was able to pickup a 3416H cheap because the PO got frustrated when he replaced the ignition switch with the wrong one and fried the mag.   (I wanted the Vickers tranny as a replacement for my T-12 broken axle tube tranny)

14 minutes ago, hurleyii said:

Can't wait to drive her today it's been years since the Old Faithful has been running. Felt good to see her running.

Always great to experience the result of your hard work. 

Most people these days would just scrap it and buy another.  And you really can't blame them based on the cost for someone else to do the repair.  Most folks today don't have the mechanical skills/knowledge or desire/time to DIY.  

 

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hurleyii

That's why I wanted to make it a project with Noah. I get all the wiring done first to try not to bore him. Figure that's something for another project

 

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hurleyii

Ok the magnum flywheel cover has a whole in it for intake or air canister. So to use the 16hp  Magnums air box you have to add a 1/4” of spacer behind filter bottom section. I used neoprene washers from hardware store for ease of install and purchase 3/4” screws. Without the spacer you can not use the factory cables without modifying them to hook up to magnums design. I completely used the K301 linkage.  I did still have to modify choke cables mounting bracket though.

Well I ran into a speed bump to drive it tonight do to gas tank leaking at the fuel line location. Have to get new parts for it or use the 3400 series tank and I’m torn on that cause I hate fighting the 3400 tank in and out but don’t want to spend the cash on new parts . I also still have to get a new cap.

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hurleyii

Well guys I said the heck with buying more parts and installed the 3400 tank. Took out for a drive and only issue I had immediately was my throttle is very loose and vibrates back down. I’d say that old 912 was way more tired then I thought as I didn’t notice any slowing down going uphill like I did with the k301. Do have a little noise I’m worried bout in my center section. I’m hoping it’s just driveshaft touching the electric lift now and then. Going to go organize the shed a little bit real quick so I can pull her in and keep her out of the weather. She’s old and doesn’t deserve that. 

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Well this weekend I hooked the tiller up and changed engine oil and BGB oil :( and then dropped her off to my dad. BGB oil had sparkles of brass and metal. Put 75w110 in her and hopefully she will make it thru planting season. 

 

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