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Tarheel

7117H rear end mystery

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Tarheel

 Went by the scrap yard looking for recycled square tubing (Have you seen the price of new steel of late ?) a few weeks ago and there sat a 7117. No front wheels, no mower deck and the head lights melted.   Talked to the owner and we reached agreement on a price and they loaded it for me. Mistake. I should have left it there and returned with my older truck and trailer. Got it home and tore into it. the KT turned out to be a Magnum with lots of missing parts. Almost all of which are NLA such as every part for the air filter from the intake on. Linkage and governor spring  and the shroud from one head. No compression turned out to be some very stuck valves and the wiring is beyond hope but the coils both fire and the engine fired w/o a carb on carb cleaner.

  Finding little online as far as parts went, Not knowing what Magnum I had, I figured I'd hit local dealers and repair shops. First stop I found a 7117. No engine or mower deck. Talked to the owner and learned that the engine and deck were inside. Got a price and bought it. Mistake #2. Let them set it in the back of my Nissan Frontier with a fork lift. Problem being that the wife's Honda is in the body shop and she is having to drive the Frontier to work at night. I got home and had two hours to unload. No problem. Wrong!

  I got the 48 inch deck unloaded without hurting the truck or the deck. They had set the engine back into the frame so that was no trouble. I back the truck up the the rear of the trailer, let the tailgate for the truck down and the gate for the trailer on top. Now I need only roll the mower from one to the other. I was more than a little pleased to notice that the rear wheels each had a 50 pound wheel weight and brand new tires. So I push the tractor, and the tractor don't move. Ok, I pull the winch strap from the front of the trailer back to the tractor and start hand cranking What a joke! It slid pretty ok along the bed liner but once it reached the expanded steel of the trailer tailgate all bets were off. OK, I went and grabbed a come along. Broke the cable! and so it went. Wheels won't turn. Ended up placing a small floor jack under one side on the rear and managed to get the thing transferred with only minutes to spare.

 OK. Here is what I have seen so far, There is no brake band on the rear end. Can not turn the brake drum by hand. Almost all the fins on the cooling fan are missing. I have replaced pumps in the past but have never seen a rear end in a 7000 locked up that I recall. I do believe I replaced the gears in once that were stripped ( something because I know I have been into a rear end housing before ) So my plan is to start with a wrench on the brake shaft to see if it will free one way or the other and plan 2 is to remove the Sunstrand and inspect from there. I have a few parts machines and can easily (I hope) if it comes to it, replace everything from the bevel gear box back if needed. But either way I want to know what happened to this one. Storms called for tonight and tomorrow so it may be a couple of days before I can do much. Any guesses as to what I'll find ?

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hurleyii

So you reached 2 tractors from a crusher. I'd transfer all the good parts from one to the other and call it the day. If you got one motor running already pull motor pressure wash off and use tins from the other. Of course I think I'd make a workbench motor stand and test fire the unknown motor first. 

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Bill725

The Operator's Manual states, "To push the tractor by hand, the release lever (on top of the Sundstrand hydro) must be engaged (pushed all the way down).

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acken

Back in the day, the bolt holding the pinion gear onto the hydro motor could come out.  Usually dropped to the bottom of transaxle case, and wedged between the final gear and the housing.  Sometimes rocking it back and forth would allow it to move a bit.  The fix was to loctite the bolt, and retorque.  Sometimes it also included other broken parts.  I never seen one on the newer 900 AC, or 7100 Simps, thought it would have been taken care of by then.  That being said we are still talking about up to a 40 year old tractor.

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Tarheel
7 hours ago, acken said:

Back in the day, the bolt holding the pinion gear onto the hydro motor could come out.  Usually dropped to the bottom of transaxle case, and wedged between the final gear and the housing.  Sometimes rocking it back and forth would allow it to move a bit.  The fix was to loctite the bolt, and retorque.  Sometimes it also included other broken parts.  I never seen one on the newer 900 AC, or 7100 Simps, thought it would have been taken care of by then.  That being said we are still talking about up to a 40 year old tractor.

 I think your on the money, but still not sure. The belt pulley is being a bear and I don't have the hydro pulled yet. As to rocking it, I doubt it had + or _ half an inch of travel till the bolts were removed from the hydro, at that time it went to maybe two inches for a moment before locking up again.

Thanks, More info to follow.

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PhanDad
1 hour ago, Tarheel said:

The belt pulley is being a bear

I used a harmonic balancer puller (I think that's what its called) using the threaded bolt holes that are in the pulley (fan uses those bolt holes):

IMG_0155.thumb.JPG.4e8685d98ed3e0848f89a8f3696634b1.JPG

Came off much easier than I expected.  

 

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Tarheel

The problem is the hydro unit its self. The input shaft is not locked but the output shaft is. Unless someone really wants to know, I'm not sure I'll pull the pump apart. Likely just install another.

 Phandad, Thanks. I did pull that pulley with what we call a steering wheel puller or harmonic balancer puller. Both work I guess. My problem with it was that the puller wouldn't fit without removing the wheel weight and then the wheel. Managed to bolt the puller to the pulley and  use a 3/8ths bolt, washer and nut in the center. It isn't so much about being lazy as about my back and the bad angle for lifting while still on the trailer.

 BTW I freed the output and though it was tight, I could turn it about a third round before it bound up again. Pushing past that it bound past turning without holding in a vice etc at half a round. Never seen the likes in a Sunstrand. Have any of you ? (may have to pull it down after all)

Thanks everyone.

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ShaunE
On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2021 at 7:55 PM, Tarheel said:

Back in the day, the bolt holding the pinion gear onto the hydro motor could come out.  Usually dropped to the bottom of transaxle case, and wedged between the final gear and the housing.  Sometimes rocking it back and forth would allow it to move a bit.  The fix was to loctite the bolt, and retorque.

This is a true statement.  You will find out if this is your problem once you remove the hydro unit from the transaxle.

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Brettw
On 3/18/2021 at 12:29 PM, acken said:

Back in the day, the bolt holding the pinion gear onto the hydro motor could come out.  Usually dropped to the bottom of transaxle case, and wedged between the final gear and the housing.  Sometimes rocking it back and forth would allow it to move a bit.  The fix was to loctite the bolt, and retorque.  Sometimes it also included other broken parts.  I never seen one on the newer 900 AC, or 7100 Simps, thought it would have been taken care of by then.  That being said we are still talking about up to a 40 year old tractor.

One of the only times I had a Sundstrand pump go bad.  The bolt and washer had come off and dropped into the gear box.  However, somehow, it did not jamb into the gears or break teeth.  It did take and get partially ground up by the gears, the gears being harder.  How did I figure this out?  Well, it was a new to me tractor, I did the usual shake down cruise, cleaning and inspection, and then began the fluids and filters, tune up, etc.  Pump seemed a bit tired, but I figured the fluid and filter would perk it up a bit. I can tell you, it's NEVER a good thing to see metal shavings in the hydro fluid. And then I knew why.  I was amazed it didn't break gears or lock something up.  This post was the first I heard of this happening to others.

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ShaunE
1 hour ago, Brettw said:

One of the only times I had a Sundstrand pump go bad.  The bolt and washer had come off and dropped into the gear box.

This was brought to my attention from Jim Tubman in Simplicity Tech Support.

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MikeES

You can turn the insides of a Sundstrand into hamburger... roll it off a trailer going about 30mph.

Many years ago I picked up a 916 with hydraulic lift and no engine, all straight sheet metal and a pretty good seat for a very good deal, but the transmission was locked up.  I assumed it was something like mentioned above.  Years later found out " it might have been the tractor the rolled off the trailer".  Never did anything with it, and ended up selling it to ACB12.  He opened up and found the hydro was ground up parts on the inside (even though it looked great on the outside).

There was no other damage, axles and everything else were good.

So...only move your unpowered Sundstrand very slow and not very far.

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Tarheel

 As I sit and think back, (the late 80s to the early 90s being a while back) Most of the trouble I ran into with this rear end/hydro combo was #1 sheared pump pins and #2 pin holes in the pick up hose (look for this in pumps that whine, Even if not leaking! ) Axle tubes that were eaten into by the needle bearings. (was it just me or did this seem to happen more with the 7790? which I seem to recall used a different part number tube than the 7117 etc. I could be wrong there)

 I'm Not much on pulling apart something I have no plans to repair. I would as a rule mark it as bad and place it on the shelf in case I ever needed a part. But being this one is in such shape I doubt that much if any internal parts will be likely worth saving, I think I may bite the bullet and tear it down. I'll post what I find.

Thanks for all the replies.

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Tarheel

BTW, The broken cooling fan. Once I had the shroud off I could see that there was only one fin left. Very strange when you see that the shroud was not bent or any such. The fan is not exactly thin steel. I could understand something like this causing the input shaft to warp, but the output ?

 Has anyone ever seen a fan damaged like this ?

Thanks

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MikeES
18 hours ago, Tarheel said:

Axle tubes that were eaten into by the needle bearings. (was it just me or did this seem to happen more with the 7790? which I seem to recall used a different part number tube than the 7117 etc. I could be wrong there)

Yes, the 7790 and 920 had a longer axle tube and solid axle, so they had a wider rear stance.  I think this was for the room to put 26-12x12 tires on rear, like many of the competitors with diesels, but just my guess.  Needed for clearance on the cone clutch, but talking with a dealer who sold a few back in the eighties never saw one with 26" tires from the factory nor ever saw it as a factory option.

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Tarheel

  Went out to the shop around midnight and pulled the Sunstrand apart. The motor had pistons that were tight, (2 or 3) and one that will not move. ( at least not with the amount of force I was willing to apply) One of the pistons I was able to remove was galled although everything was coated with fluid.

 So,  I still don't have a clue as to the hows and whys. Water, towed, low fluid ? Either way It's a write off. In a quick search I found 3 loose Sunstrand units. One of those will be used likely before the week is out. Depending on the time it takesto work out a surging Onan twin 18 for a neighbor.

 Thanks again to all of you.

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PhanDad
9 hours ago, Tarheel said:

 If the tube is longer, then the solid axle would need to be as well.

Thanks.

I was overthinking the statement.  I thought Mike was implying the the regular, shorter axle wasn't solid.  That wasn't his intent.  

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Tarheel
6 hours ago, acken said:

No proof, but I wonder if the diesels axles were wider for stability.  Heavier tractor needed wider stance to prevent rollover?

  My uncle next door has a 7790 but I haven't spent much time on them myself. But as someone said before Simplicity may have been looking to match other mfg'r And as I know first hand, Machines like my 318 JD are more stable when mowing along a hillside. I'm not sure that the 7790 has enough of a width difference to matter but in all fairness, The ground here is flat as a pancake while 95% of the mowing I do is at my mother's place where it is anything but flat. I may have to take the 7790 over there at some point. Or maybe someone will chime in.

 

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PhanDad
21 minutes ago, casinojim said:

And the 410 will a electric lift from a t16 work on the 410

An Allis built T-16 electric lift actuator is the same, but the Homelite's had the mounting bracket built into the frame.  The Allis 300/400 have a mounting piece.  

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