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Looking for crossover numbers for bevel gear box ball bearings


Dave in Alberta

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Hi All

Brought home a Simplicity 3416 H with the contents of the bevel gear box in a cardboard box.  The input shaft had a problem and the previous owner had torn it apart and not gotten any further. The roller bearings, Simplicity part 172256 are not in the cardboard box, so I can't get a number off them to search for replacements. Does anyone have info on cross over numbers for these? 

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Note:  

This

sentence 

is

taking

up 

space 

so 

right 

side 

of 

table

can

be

seen.

 

BGB Bearings/Seals Info I've collected over the years:

Part   From Posts   Sov18   T-10   Other
                 
Big Oil Seal   SKF12745   CR 542016        
                 
                 
                 
Sm Oil Seal   National 351267   TB2 137 87 25 TTO C415 4        
        New for Rebuild:        
        TB2 137 87 28 TTO C415 3        
                 
Big Bearing   IDC 6205-2RS-7/8 (Remove Seal)   Fafnir 205K17   BCA BDE(?) N14 or   JD 9207
    BCA 205N14       BCA EOB(?) N14    6205-7/8
    RB Tech 6205-14           52mm OD x 7/8" ID
                 
Sm Needle Brg   Timken BH1412   Torrington BH-1412       7/8" Dia
                 
                 
                 
Woodruff Keys   3/16x47/64x19/64 B90 Hard            
                 
                 
                 
Big Seal Spacer   1.940"ODx1.680"IDx0.408"            
                 
                 
                 
O-ring   0.739IDx0.070 (No 18)            

 

The 172256 bearing is an odd-ball as I understand it, a metric bearing with a 7/8" shaft:


https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/48890-bgb-bearing-redux/

There's a BGB Rebuild video available on the site:

https://simpletractors.com/videos/view-64-simplicity-service-video-power-steering-rotary-valve-and-bevel-gear-box/

 

Edited by PhanDad
Added length to post for complete table view
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Thanks very much.  This should get me the bearings so I can get the bevel gear box back together.  Wonderful info and great site!  

Dave

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The only current manufacturer of the big BGB ball bearings I know of is Peer 6205-14. FYI, B&S/Simplicity does not manufacturer their own bearings or seals, My understanding is B&S/Simplicity orders a whole bunch of bearings at a time.

Edited by PhanDad
Fixed type 6204--->6205
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Thanks for that update Bill725.  Have my bearing supplier looking into availability.  Hopefully that turns out.  Might buy a couple extra if the price is not too exorbitant 4i.  Can;t imagine that this is a high volume item with the bearing suppliers.

 

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  • 1 month later...

I was able to get this bearing through Brenda at Sandy Lake.  7/8 shaft, 52mm diameter replaces the bevel gear box ball bearings.  Looks to be Chinese in origin, but the B&S number is 2172256SM.Bearing.thumb.jpg.19a88210499fbf10cd1bbfb41ddcfc69.jpg

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The last ones I bought in the summer of 2017 from Simplicity were made in China by RB Tech:

IMG_9895.thumb.JPG.b6a1d84f7c5458de9aae35ba3c0b33c0.JPG

(Pic date is when I documented July 2017 bearing purchase).

 

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This is not a metric bearing. It is a std. 6205 but with a 7/8th bore instead of 3/4. I paid $30 for this bearing before I disassembled my BGB.....but my original bearing was fine so I did not use the China bearing because the OEM looked higher quality. OEM had 11 balls vs 9.

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4 hours ago, deebig said:

This is not a metric bearing.

 

21 hours ago, Dave in Alberta said:

7/8 shaft, 52mm diameter

FYI, the 6205 series bearing happens to be a metric bearing with a 52 mm OD. The bearing P/N is 6205-14 and the -14 means the bore is 14/16" = 7/8", which makes it a special metric bearing. 

Edited by Bill725
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6 hours ago, Bill725 said:

 

FYI, the 6205 series bearing happens to be a metric bearing with a 52 mm OD. The bearing P/N is 6205-14 and the -14 means the bore is 14/16" = 7/8", which makes it a special metric bearing. 

you are absolutely right.....I stand corrected but 7/8 bore is not metric that is what makes it special or bastard size.

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  • 2 months later...

Is there a difference between the BGB boxes? 700 series and up?

Like hydro vs non hydro  700 won't work on 900 series. Stuff like that!?

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3 hours ago, hurleyii said:

Also how is this post got a whole side screen to the right with part numbers.

Thanks for pointing that out. 

Didn't notice that part of the copied table from Exel was overwritten by the "ADVERTS" box.  I adjusted my post such that the entire table can be see.

I also corrected a typo in @Bill725 post (6204--->6205).

 

 

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3 hours ago, hurleyii said:

Is there a difference between the BGB boxes? 700 series and up?

Like hydro vs non hydro  700 won't work on 900 series. Stuff like that!?

@SmilinSam pretty much answered your questions with this shortened statement:

"All the gear box cross shafts for 3300 series and older have short shafts on the pto sides compared to the 3400 series and newer.

3400 and early 7000 series gear boxes also had a smaller diameter nut and threads on the end of teh PTO side ( which can snap off if you over torque it, like with a impact wrench.) The keyways on those and the 400 series AC's were full length. 

 I think it was on the late 7000 series  and 7100 series & newer that  the nut and threads on the end of the pto side were the same dia as the shaft( like on the trans drive side.) They also replaced the full length keyway with half moon keys in the correct location for the cone clutch pto.

Also there were no variable speed drive in the 3400 series or newer. Al the transmission variants for the 3400 series and newer used the same basic style of gearbox."

The above is from this post:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/66037-bgb-model-fit/

 

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  • 1 year later...

Do you know anything about shaft hardness ??  Torrington specifies a minimum shaft hardness of 58 RC.

I have some old original pinion and cross shafts and they no where near that hardness.

Same goes for the transmission. I completely rebuilt my transmission in 1999. Had to make two of the shafts because they were obsolete.

I used 1144 (FP) TGP shafting. Minimum hardness for that stuff is 38 RC. A bit soft but it's still running after 23 years.

I have to guess that Torringtons hardness specs are based off of the full load limit and RPM of the bearings which is about 2800 - 3200 Lbf.

There  is no where near that kind of force on any of the shafts in that transmission.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JoeT&DMaker said:

Do you know anything about shaft hardness ??

@Bill725 mentions shaft hardness in this post:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/66453-bevel-gearbox-input-shaft-dimensions/?tab=comments#comment-530867

And you can read this post about a failure at the cross shaft needle bearing area on a BGB I rebuilt:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/66821-agco-allis-918h-bevel-gear-box/?tab=comments#comment-534394

 

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The OEM BGB shafts are made from 1141 alloy steel, induction hardened to Rc 52-60 and a case depth of 0.020-0.040" after grinding for a length of 2.25" located in the center of the needle bearing.

An option is to use 1" pre-hard 4140 bar stock and machine, flame harden the needle bearing area and finish grind to 7/8".

Edited by Bill725
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On 7/17/2023 at 11:05 PM, PhanDad said:

Thanks for the links. I'm having a hard time finding my way around this site.

It dosn't work like most I've been on.

 

 

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On 7/18/2023 at 8:50 AM, Bill725 said:

The OEM BGB shafts are made from 1141 alloy steel, induction hardened to Rc 52-60 and a case depth of 0.020-0.040" after grinding for a length of 2.25" located in the center of the needle bearing.

An option is to use 1" pre-hard 4140 bar stock and machine, flame harden the needle bearing area and finish grind to 7/8".

That's good to know. I can make the shafts, I can even grind them but that's not necessary except for maybe where the gear and 6204 bearing mounts. The problem is hardening. I  would have no way of knowing where I'm at. If I should get it too hard it may snap, heating in one area could also cause the shaft to warp. I can buy hardened shaft but don't think I would be able to machine it with carbide, ,cut key slots etc.

This also applies to the 3 speed transmission that I have to get into as soon as I get the BGB back together.

I have some old pinion shafts and cross shafts from previous repairs, none of those are very hard as I can take a file to them and they file pretty easy.

Fortunately, the shafts in my BGB are good. The only thing that prompted me to look inside is that I could feel something in the pinion shaft that didn't feel right. The problem was the woodruff key. It started to get a little indented on the sides which caused a little play in the gear on the shaft. No damage to the slot in the shaft.

I had to make a go no-go plug gage to check both needle bearings. Found that they are both a little out of tolerance. I found new ones.

Hope you can see my picture.

TNX........

IMG_20230715_155540.jpg

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What is the diameter of the BGB input shaft and the RH/clutch side of the cross shaft. Looks like 3/4" diameter. If so, that is not a BGB for a 3400 series as they are 7/8".

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The input shaft is .750 and the end where the bearing and gear mount is .788.

The cross shaft is .875 and is stepped down for the bevel gear and pulley / sleeve.

This box is off my Landlord 2012    Mfg. model 990339.

 

I know that these gears are no longer available but mine are stamped with a logo "Arrow Gear"

I looked them up       https://www.arrowgear.com/stock-gears/stock-gears-catalog/stock-ground-tooth-gears/

Here they are but there are some differences. The closet match I could find has a .750 bore vs the Simplicity .788 bore and these are 20 teeth vs the Simplicity 24 tooth. With some machining to the shaft they may work, not sure how they would mesh.

All other dimensions look to be the same. I've tried calling them for over a week but no one answers.

Here's a picture of the old girl..........

 

 

IMG-20180424-114105.jpg

Edited by JoeT&DMaker
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@JoeT&DMaker

The 3200 series tractors and below have the small BGB with 3/4" shafts. The 3300 series and above have the big BGB with 7/8" shafts. You may want to consider retrofitting a big BGB into your 2012 like I did to my 725 and (2) 2012s. You need the 3300 cross shaft, P/N 2172207SM, and re-machine to shorten the RH/clutch side and re-bore from 3/4" to 7/8" and cut a new keyway in the clutch drive pulley, buy a thrust washer to space the pulley to align with the transmission driven pulley and need the big driveshaft yoke. See pictures below of a big BGB in a 2012 and a spare BGB. If you are interested, PM me.

Somewhere there is a previous post I made on this topic. Hoping, @PhanDadcan find and post here.

Big BGB Retofit.jpg

FDT Big BGB.jpg

Edited by Bill725
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9 minutes ago, Bill725 said:

@JoeT&DMaker

The 3200 series tractors and below have the small BGB with 3/4" shafts. The 3300 series and above have the big BGB with 7/8" shafts. You may want to consider retrofitting a big BGB into your 2012 like I did to my 725 and (2) 2012s. You need the 3300 cross shaft, P/N 2172207SM, and re-machine to shorten the RH/clutch side and re-bore from 3/4" to 7/8" and cut a new keyway in the clutch drive pulley and buy a thrust washer to space the pulley to align with the transmission driven pulley. If you are interested, PM me.

Somewhere there is a previous post I made on this topic. Hoping, @PhanDadcan find and post here.

Mine does have the 7/8" shaft. The needle bearing on the left hand side is a BH-1412 and the ball bearing on the RH/clutch side is a 6204.

Is this the shaft your referring to ?

I have a Sovereign 3012 with the variable drive set up, same BGB and shaft with the exception of the shaft being a little longer on the RH side to accommodate the Vari Drive sheave.

 

TNX......

Edited by JoeT&DMaker
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