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990407 mower deck rebuild - bearing size confusion


brewster_239

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brewster_239

Hey all, I'm working on this mower deck that came to me from my grandfather's Landlord 2110. The two outer arbor assemblies were seized, and the middle one stiff, so I decided to tear them apart. They were pretty rusted, though with a gear puller/separator I was able to get the pulleys off (only broke one).

They required some major kinetic inputs via a BFH to get the old bearings out. I have a set of 6 "2108202SM" type bearings on the way, along with a set of replacement top jam nuts. I will need to mess with the washers/spacers/flingers to see what I need to order, as there was apparently a random assemblage of them previously installed, and some are rusted or damaged beyond likely reuse. 

Here's my problem though, which I can't figure out after hours of googling and reading old threads here. The outer arbors are factory orange, with three (square) bolt holes, and no zerks. The center arbor, the one that has the stacked pulleys (for the drive belt), is apparently a replacement of a different "old" style,  is black, with 6 mounting holes, and a zerk fitting. All well and good, except that it seems to be of a different inner diameter. The old bearings that came out are of a visually smaller OD and ID than the ones from the outer arbors. Through some dry-fitting the old parts, it seems obvious that new 108202 bearings will not fit in this arbor, and if they did, they would be loose on the center spindle, which also appears to have a smaller OD, though it is threaded for the same cap/jam nut. My theory is that this center arbor was replaced as a complete assembly, designed for some other deck.

I searched through the parts manuals for all the 42" and 48" deck styles listed on this site, but they all show the same bearing part numbers for all three arbors.

So: does anyone know what assembly this might be, or what deck it could have been from/for, so I can order the proper bearings? They don't have any numbers on them that I can find.

If not, I guess I will have to either 1) bring an old bearing to a local shop and see if they can match it or 2) replace the assembly with a "new" one if I can find one?

Thanks for any ideas!

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brewster_239

Okay, a small update here. I found a note on the paperwork my dad gave me with this mower deck showing part number 1650533, and googling that I found this thread, where another user has found the same arbor assembly on his mower deck. Mine also has the longer spacer as described, the inner "tabs," and that "bearing stop" part which I, too, destroyed upon hammering the top bearing out.  

I also found this parts diagram at Jack's that indicates 1650533 as the arbor/bearing assembly is for 48" deck number 1960021. However, that diagram still lists the bearings as part number 2108202SM!  I feel like I'm going crazy.

The bearings that came out of that arbor are DEFINITELY not 2108202s -- they are too large to be pressed in, and neither is the center spindle sized for 2108202s -- they rattle around the shaft with nearly 1/8" of play. 

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brewster_239
7 hours ago, Bill725 said:

@brewster_239

Measure the bearing bore/ID, OD and thickness with a caliper so I can look.

Of course. Should have included that. Thanks. 

ID: 0.745"
OD: 1.780"
Thickness : 0.608"

My measurements of the larger bearings from the two outer orange-painted arbors are:

ID: 0.784"
OD: 1.851"
Thickness: 0.550"

Edited by brewster_239
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@brewster_239

My late model Sovereign 48" deck uses the 108202 which I have as a Timken/Fafnir P204RR6 which is 0.7500/.7505"  bore X 1.7800/1.7805" OD X 0.6050/0.610 wide.

Edited by Bill725
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brewster_239

Well @Bill725, thank you -- that explains it. The "mystery" bearings in the middle arbor are indeed the 108202. It's the ones that are in the OTHER two arbors, the outer ones, that are the odd size, and I found the part number for those: 118011/2118011SM . Mystery solved! I wonder what mower deck those arbors are from!?

For anyone else reading this thread in posterity, disregard my above claims about which bearings are which. 

I'm on the right track now -- thanks again. 

Edited by brewster_239
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brewster_239

Okay, so the mystery was solved, but it has revealed another mystery. I need to know what washers/spacers/flingers to use on those larger outside arbors, and what order to assemble them in. All I know is that they use bearing number 118011. Replacements are readily available, but I can't find a cross-reference anywhere to tell me what deck or arbor they're from, so I can see the full diagram. Possibly from an older or larger deck than the 42" 990407 I have? The 108202 bearings are far too small for these arbors.

Edit: since I'm having absolutely zero luck finding any matching parts lists or diagrams, maybe these arbors were bored out to fit these larger bearings at some point in the past? The spindles actually look to have some material added to increase shaft size where the bearings sit. But why? Were 108202 bearings ever hard to get? Seems so unlikely.

Edited by brewster_239
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Unusual problem.  I use Jack's for cross reference info and based on this page for the 118011 bearing I don't see any reference to a Simplicity deck:

https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/part/simplicity/2118011sm

That bearing is used in the "small" BGB used in the early Simplicity tractors.  

Maybe the outer arbors aren't Simplicity, but a close match?  

 

 

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brewster_239
1 hour ago, PhanDad said:

Maybe the outer arbors aren't Simplicity, but a close match?  

 

 

Yeah, I tried clicking through all the Jack's cross-references, even other brands, using the various part numbers for these bearings, but I couldn't find any similar arbors. I'm wearing out my google search bar, haha.

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Just read the post you referenced above about the 1650533 arbor tube assembly.  Here's the link to my post referenced (in the "new" site address format):

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/15504-odd-arbor-from-a/

I believe the arbor show in the above post uses the 108202 bearings.  The 108202 bearings have never been hard to get; but based on posts, the quality of them has varied.  

 

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I've reread this post and have some thoughts. 

On 8/15/2022 at 1:11 PM, brewster_239 said:

The center arbor, the one that has the stacked pulleys (for the drive belt), is apparently a replacement of a different "old" style,  is black, with 6 mounting holes, and a zerk fitting.

 

On 8/16/2022 at 9:33 AM, brewster_239 said:

I found a note on the paperwork my dad gave me with this mower deck showing part number 1650533

Replacement arbors were painted black as well as orange.  So I think this arbor was a factory replacement.  

 

3 hours ago, brewster_239 said:

maybe these arbors were bored out to fit these larger bearings at some point in the past? The spindles actually look to have some material added to increase shaft size where the bearings sit.

I think this is the answer.  Did your Dad have access to a machine shop?  Although the replacement arbors have never been "cheap", I would think the machine shop charges to bore the arbor housings and add material to the arbor shafts and then size them would be greater than the cost of replacement arbors.  

 

4 hours ago, brewster_239 said:

All I know is that they use bearing number 118011.

Curious to how you determined the number?   (It's not a typical bearing manufacturer number)

 

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brewster_239
3 minutes ago, PhanDad said:
4 hours ago, brewster_239 said:

maybe these arbors were bored out to fit these larger bearings at some point in the past? The spindles actually look to have some material added to increase shaft size where the bearings sit.

I think this is the answer.  Did your Dad have access to a machine shop?  Although the replacement arbors have never been "cheap", I would think the machine shop charges to bore the arbor housings and add material to the arbor shafts and then size them would be greater than the cost of replacement arbors.  

It's possible, since it was his dad's first, and he owned the dealership/repair shop. So it's no surprise that there's an odd assemblage of parts, I guess. But the only reason I could think of to do this is if they had a surplus of the larger bearings, or a hard time getting the proper ones, or maybe the arbors were rusted too badly or damaged.

4 minutes ago, PhanDad said:
4 hours ago, brewster_239 said:

All I know is that they use bearing number 118011.

Curious to how you determined the number?   (It's not a typical bearing manufacturer number)

 

On the paperwork my dad gave me is a post-it note that says "bearing 118011" -- haha. I ordered some using that number and they're an exact match. 

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brewster_239

Thought I'd add some photos just for general interest of the "mystery" arbors. Didn't notice until just now, but they are also of two different styles, though the bore ID is the same; the 118011 bearings, old and new, seem to fit perfectly. Also noticed that one is a little cracked down by the base.... which maybe I did while pushing the spindle out. wah Maybe all this discussion is academic... if you guys think that crack poses a risk of breakage during use, I'll just buy two "new" assemblies and have three matching ones. 

And also one of the two spindles, which are identical. You can see the areas where it looks like extra steel was welded on and then machined.  

299373438_301118148889446_2434535528889818451_n.jpg

299268493_3199218947011657_5023457663507232098_n.jpg

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Make sure all 3 of the housings have grease fittings. If the bearings have seals on both sides, remove the inner seal, when reassembling use RTV to seal the housing. Pump grease into the arbor until it starts to squeeze out past the outer seal. Re-grease at least once a year.

I have greased my deck since new in 2000 and 22 years later still running the OEM bearings.

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brewster_239
13 hours ago, Bill725 said:

Make sure all 3 of the housings have grease fittings. If the bearings have seals on both sides, remove the inner seal, when reassembling use RTV to seal the housing. Pump grease into the arbor until it starts to squeeze out past the outer seal. Re-grease at least once a year.

I have greased my deck since new in 2000 and 22 years later still running the OEM bearings.

Bill, that sounds like good advice to me. Is it a matter of a simple drill & tap for the zerk somewhere mid-body in the arbor? 

Also one further note on my above post with the photos. I said the two outer arbors are different styles, but upon a closer look they are not -- the one on the right has had a sleeve welded onto the outside, I'm guessing to reinforce the thin remaining wall after the ID was machined. 

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brewster_239

Okay all, thanks for all the advice so far. Got my bearings sorted and installed, inner bearing seals removed, zerks added as needed. 

Now I'm having a problem with the washers/spacers/flingers. After disassembling the three arbors I ended up with a pile of them, but not nearly as many as the schematics show, and none of any single size/style in the correct quantity. Many are worn and/or rusted and might not be to original spec.

I reassembled each arbor the best I could with what I have, working to match the pulley height, and keeping the smaller washers against the inner bearing races.  However, once I have the 3/4" top nut torqued down, I'm getting some tension on the spindles. They turn smoothly, but not "freely," like they do before I tighten the nut down. From my research I understand that the washers, inner bearing races, the inner spacer "tube," and the nut should create a tight sandwich assembly, within which that the spindle/blade should spin freely.

I'm guessing I need get more of the correct washers and spacers and orient them correctly. Most of them, of course, are "Not Available" from Jack's or anywhere else I can find online or from my local Simplicity dealer. Any ideas where I could source these, or suitable replacements?

Specifically I need: 

K - 2108181

AJ - 2108472

Y - 2108257SM

J - 2108139 (flinger)

(from https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/manufacturer/simplicity/simplicity/attachments-accessories/mower-decks/42-mower-decks/990407-42-rotary-mower/arbor-assemblies)

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brewster_239

Well, I decided to give it one more go. I took them apart again and reshuffled things. Seemed I was only one thick, narrow washer short. The ones that bear against the bearing inner race. Since I bought a replacement arbor assy, I had a spare spacer (the one that goes inside the arbor between the bearings), so I cut an extra "washer" off its end. Took a while to square using a file, but got it close enough, I think. Reassembled and they still don't freewheel, but they're smooth. Reassembled all to the deck. Took apart the idler assembly, cleaned the rust off and greased everything, including the height adjusters in the rear which were pretty well frozen, and put the belt on. Feels pretty good. The belt is old and cracked so I need a replacement there, but once I get that, I'll hook it up to the tractor, adjust the mid PTO, and cross my fingers before flipping the lever. Thanks again for all the help. 

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