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6-Spd Simplicity 725


Austin

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I have basically a complete 725 minus a transmission. And I have been beginning to brainstorm.. Has anyone tried swapping a 6-Spd from a 700 series Allis into a Simplicity 725? If so were there any difficulties? From the comparison and looking I've done, it seems to be a direct bolt up. I'd just need to figure out a way to shift from hi to lo range. Any input is appreciated. Austin

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1 hour ago, Austin said:

I'd just need to figure out a way to shift from hi to lo range.

That is the issue. The 725 has the shorter 44" wheel base. The wheel base was lengthened 4" in the BGB to transaxle side plates to 48" starting with the 2200 & 3000 series. I think it would be easier to use a hi-lo unit.

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17 minutes ago, Bill725 said:

The wheel base was lengthened 4" in the BGB to transaxle side plates to 48" starting with the 2200 & 3000 series.

Could you use the side plates from the 700 series Allis?  

When I converted my short wheel base B-110 into a HB-110, I used the side plates and tranny from a 3416H without a problem....

But I did have to swap out/modify all the control rods and move the rear fender support bar back 4" on the front frame.

 IMG_2088.thumb.JPG.f190fecce379a260cd9ea801142b94b9.JPG

IMG_9295.thumb.JPG.678d1d941cc3a86b5f9b70316b40d6a7.JPG

I also had to use a late model rear seat pan but that was because (if I remember correctly), the B-110 double jointed hinge interfered with the Vickers hydro cooler.  

 

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2 hours ago, Bill725 said:

That is the issue. The 725 has the shorter 44" wheel base. The wheel base was lengthened 4" in the BGB to transaxle side plates to 48" starting with the 2200 & 3000 series. I think it would be easier to use a hi-lo unit.

Not that I need a hi/lo range option. I just thought the conversion would be fun to attempt. Overall the trans should still bolt up. I could rig maybe a lever or pedal system for the tensioner pulley to move between belts.

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1 hour ago, PhanDad said:

Could you use the side plates from the 700 series Allis?  

When I converted my short wheel base B-110 into a HB-110, I used the side plates and tranny from a 3416H without a problem....

But I did have to swap out/modify all the control rods and move the rear fender support bar back 4" on the front frame.

 IMG_2088.thumb.JPG.f190fecce379a260cd9ea801142b94b9.JPG

IMG_9295.thumb.JPG.678d1d941cc3a86b5f9b70316b40d6a7.JPG

I also had to use a late model rear seat pan but that was because (if I remember correctly), the B-110 double jointed hinge interfered with the Vickers hydro cooler.  

 

That was my next question. Hope @Bill725 can chime in.

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I bought a 7110 6-speed for the transaxle only to install into one of my 2012s because the newer transaxle has axle tube needle bearings and the original 2012 transaxle had bushings. It did not work out and became a parts tractor.

1) The 725 frame does not have the pivot bushing for the 6-speed lever on the RH side as shown above.

2) You will have to transfer the 6-spped rear end from the front of the BGB aft to the 725.

3) You will have to use the seat pan used on the 6-speed due to the wheel base. IMHO, a round hood with a 1-piece seat pan just doesn't like right.

I think it is possible. Some issues need to be worked out. I just think it is too much work.

@SmilinSamhas built SWB hydros and could provide more insight.

Edited by Bill725
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1 hour ago, Bill725 said:

3) You will have to use the seat pan used on the 6-speed due to the wheel base. IMHO, a round hood with a 1-piece seat pan just doesn't like right.

 

My sentiments also..

Mechanically you could make it work, but it would involve some thought and effort. And when done the tractor wouldnt look right at all.

Using a Hydro you could do the short frame conversion using a 900 series side mount filter type transmission and cut the frame plates down 4" or so. Then the tractor looks right.  My latest was a Big Ten which is still here. 

I have considered a 700/725/B-1, but the 8 hp with a hydro would be a bit weak, but could be done. Wheel Horse used 8 hp on their short frame hydros in the mid 60's.

But ,  back on subject,  a 6 speed setup cant have the frame plates shortened. A 6 speed would be a great conversion to do on a B-112/B-210/B-212, or similar Simplicity. Such would be a breeze really... and look great in the end.

You can give it a shot, but I wouldnt want to go to all the work to have a "HoKeY" lookin tractor in the end...

Edited by SmilinSam
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1 hour ago, Bill725 said:

I bought a 7110 6-speed for the transaxle only to install into one of my 2012s because the newer transaxle has axle tube needle bearings and the original 2012 transaxle had bushings. It did not work out and became a parts tractor.

1) The 725 frame does not have the pivot bushing for the 6-speed lever on the RH side as shown above.

2) You will have to transfer the 6-spped rear end from the front of the BGB aft to the 725.

3) You will have to use the seat pan used on the 6-speed due to the wheel base. IMHO, a round hood with a 1-piece seat pan just doesn't like right.

I think it is possible. Some issues need to be worked out. I just think it is too much work.

@SmilinSamhas built SWB hydros and could provide more insight.

I appreciate the input and I am trying to take all of that into consideration. Agreed it might not be worth all the work needed to make it useable but it'd be fun.

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4 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

My sentiments also..

Mechanically you could make it work, but it would involve some thought and effort. And when done the tractor wouldnt look right at all.

Using a Hydro you could do the short frame conversion using a 900 series side mount filter type transmission and cut the frame plates down 4" or so. Then the tractor looks right.  My latest was a Big Ten which is still here. 

I have considered a 700/725/B-1, but the 8 hp with a hydro would be a bit weak, but could be done. Wheel Horse used 8 hp on their short frame hydros in the mid 60's.

But ,  back on subject,  a 6 speed setup cant have the frame plates shortened. A 6 speed would be a great conversion to do on a B-112/B-210/B-212, or similar Simplicity. Such would be a breeze really... and look great in the end.

You can give it a shot, but I wouldnt want to go to all the work to have a "HoKeY" lookin tractor in the end...

I agree. It would be a shame to do all the work for an odd looking machine in the end. What would make it not look right is my overall question? It has the original bgb, so that would mount up to the frame no issues.

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7 hours ago, Austin said:

I agree. It would be a shame to do all the work for an odd looking machine in the end. What would make it not look right is my overall question? It has the original bgb, so that would mount up to the frame no issues.

The 6 speed and hydro machines are on a wheel base that is about 4" longer than your short frame 725. If you simply bolt up the 6 speed  it will make the 725 4" longer.

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46 minutes ago, SmilinSam said:

The 6 speed and hydro machines are on a wheel base that is about 4" longer than your short frame 725. If you simply bolt up the 6 speed  it will make the 725 4" longer.

Ohh, well that makes sense. Sorry I didn't quite comprehend when Bill first brought it up. I am sure that I could figure something out to combat that issue.

Edited by Austin
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I have done the six speed conversion on a B112, and really like it.  I used everything from the BGB back, except the cone clutch.   I did use the bushing that normally would hold the variable lever.  I only use this tractor for tilling, so I just put the small pulley to drive mule drive.  I wanted the lower range, but never got used to the planetary 2 speed rattle.  I had to shorten linkage about 4".  Been using this setup for at least the last 8 years and wouldn't go back.

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I’ve been thinking about this topic and watching the comments. I think I would give it a try if it were my tractor and extend the “arms” back to the hinge area on the new rear end. I haven’t pulled any tractors out to check the theory but in my head it would work. Or extend the “tunnel” and put the seat pan to the back if you need the leg room. I could be wrong. 

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7 hours ago, simplewrench said:

I’ve been thinking about this topic and watching the comments. I think I would give it a try if it were my tractor and extend the “arms” back to the hinge area on the new rear end. I haven’t pulled any tractors out to check the theory but in my head it would work. Or extend the “tunnel” and put the seat pan to the back if you need the leg room. I could be wrong. 

i tried both those ideas back when I was contemplating my first short frame  conversion. Went to the effort to actually weld up the mods for both ways to bolt up and see what it looked like. So...when I say "HoKeY" lookin, I'm not just talking from my imagination.

If you lengthen the seat/fender pan arms then the fenders dont line up with the rear wheels. If you lengthen the tunnel, it kinda just ruins the looks of the tractor. That and you only have the really  narrow toe bars on the 700/725 to hang your feet on that are now 4" further away. Difficult , if not unsafe , to seat yourself in a manner to adequately reach them. My opinions of course, based on  actually having the stuff fabbed up in front of me to evaluate.

There are others over the years  in here that have done the short frame conversions with a hydro using the "long chasis" method and a full single piece seat pan. They came out fully functional, but they really  lost the real looks of a short frame footdragger.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock those guys handiwork, its just not the look "I" was after when I was doing the conversion.

Edited by SmilinSam
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8 hours ago, acken said:

I have done the six speed conversion on a B112, and really like it.  I used everything from the BGB back, except the cone clutch.   I did use the bushing that normally would hold the variable lever.  I only use this tractor for tilling, so I just put the small pulley to drive mule drive.  I wanted the lower range, but never got used to the planetary 2 speed rattle.  I had to shorten linkage about 4".  Been using this setup for at least the last 8 years and wouldn't go back.

Thank you sharing. It sounds like it’d be an effective and quite interesting machine. 

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7 hours ago, simplewrench said:

I’ve been thinking about this topic and watching the comments. I think I would give it a try if it were my tractor and extend the “arms” back to the hinge area on the new rear end. I haven’t pulled any tractors out to check the theory but in my head it would work. Or extend the “tunnel” and put the seat pan to the back if you need the leg room. I could be wrong. 

Those were my thoughts as well. But I agree with Sam that it might make it look a bit wonky. I suppose it can still be done however. If done well enough you might be able to pass it off as acceptable looking. I’ll let everyone know my plan once I proceed further.

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18 minutes ago, SmilinSam said:

i tried both those ideas back when I was contemplating my first short frame  conversion. Went to the effort to actually weld up the mods for both ways to bolt up and see what it looked like. So...when I say "HoKeY" lookin, I'm not just talking from my imagination.

If you lengthen the seat/fender pan arms then the fenders dont line up with the rear wheels. If you lengthen the tunnel, it kinda just ruins the looks of the tractor. That and you only have the really  narrow toe bars on the 700/725 to hang your feet on that are now 4" further away. Difficult , if not unsafe , to seat yourself in a manner to adequately reach them. My opinions of course, based on  actually having the stuff fabbed up in front of me to evaluate.

There are others over the years  in here that have done the short frame conversions with a hydro using the "long chasis" method and a full single piece seat pan. They came out fully functional, but they really  lost the real looks of a short frame footdragger.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock those guys handiwork, its just not the look "I" was after when I was doing the conversion.

I agree with your argument about it looking a bit “HoKeY”. But I think if done well enough you might not be able to tell, but we shall see what happens. I’ll let you know if I proceed further.

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58 minutes ago, Austin said:

I agree with your argument about it looking a bit “HoKeY”. But I think if done well enough you might not be able to tell, but we shall see what happens. I’ll let you know if I proceed further.

Well, there one rule that we all have to deal with at one time or another, that being..                 You have to work with what you got.

 

So, if it were me, I would set things up and see where the seat pan fits in realtion to the rear wheels when the chasis is all bolted up.  Probably will look best lengthening the tunnel piece. However, it may be such a thing as what looks best might be a little bit of both methods, lengthen the tunnel a litle and the seat deck  arms a little. You would have to be the judge of that. nThis all providing the underside of the seat pan will clear all the six speed pullies and brackets. 

 If it were me, I would try to run the 6 spped control rod up through the tunnel . Cut a hole in the right side of the frame in an appropriate location and weld a sleeve in for the control arm.  You might have to trim the dash part to drop down over the sleeve.  Unlike a Hydro, theres no gate to have to worry about locating for the control arm. The 6 speed control arm just sits out to the right of the frame and only moves so far in each direction.

If it gets that far, then one might have to add some territory to the foot rest  for your feet to safely reach them.

 

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21 minutes ago, SmilinSam said:

Well, there one rule that we all have to deal with at one time or another, that being..                 You have to work with what you got.

 

So, if it were me, I would set things up and see where the seat pan fits in realtion to the rear wheels when the chasis is all bolted up.  Probably will look best lengthening the tunnel piece. However, it may be such a thing as what looks best might be a little bit of both methods, lengthen the tunnel a litle and the seat deck  arms a little. You would have to be the judge of that. nThis all providing the underside of the seat pan will clear all the six speed pullies and brackets. 

 If it were me, I would try to run the 6 spped control rod up through the tunnel . Cut a hole in the right side of the frame in an appropriate location and weld a sleeve in for the control arm.  You might have to trim the dash part to drop down over the sleeve.  Unlike a Hydro, theres no gate to have to worry about locating for the control arm. The 6 speed control arm just sits out to the right of the frame and only moves so far in each direction.

If it gets that far, then one might have to add some territory to the foot rest  for your feet to safely reach them.

 

Guess I have to go get the transmission, and rob a set of rear tires off my buddy. I think a little of both worlds would work. I still want to see how hard it would be to convert the clutch pedal for the 6-spd shift lever. And then put in a lever for a hand clutch. I think that'd suit my liking a little bit more.

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3 minutes ago, Austin said:

 I still want to see how hard it would be to convert the clutch pedal for the 6-spd shift lever. And then put in a lever for a hand clutch. I think that'd suit my liking a little bit more.

As long as you can remember where the real clutch is....

 

I would'nt trust my mind(such that it is) that far...sm00

Edited by SmilinSam
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It’s interesting to think about the whole concept. I really like a 6 speed. 
if it’s just availability I have an extra 3 speed trans from a 64 Landlord. Only problem is I’m in Illinois and you’re in Pa. 

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1 hour ago, simplewrench said:

It’s interesting to think about the whole concept. I really like a 6 speed. 
if it’s just availability I have an extra 3 speed trans from a 64 Landlord. Only problem is I’m in Illinois and you’re in Pa. 

Not just availability, but I like the idea of the concept.

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  • 4 months later...
Posted (edited)

Well it seems I never added anything else since the transmission contemplation. I had missed out on the 6-Spd transmission in the end, but managed to grab a 3 normal 3-Spd transmission from an early B10. Both the bgb and trans were completely filled with water, not a single drop of oil in the mix. Surprisingly the bgb is the tightest/best I’ve ever come across. I believe it is factory gear-lash and play. Trans itself has a VERY bad axle seal which I will replace, also due to the water I believe the gears have rusted in place as it does not shift. But I plan to tear into it soon and replace both axle seals and free up the gears. I might need to find a different front axle as sadly the old and completely shot rims will not come of. Or get different spindles but I’m not sure I have spares and I am sure I don’t have any extra wheel bearings. The one has a metal dust cap that is rusted to the rim, and the other has no cap but the lock collar is rusted to the spindle. It is so on there that even with heat, penetrating oil, a hammer and vice grips, and a bent Allen wrench (was already junk thankfully) it still hasn’t budged once. I have front rims/tires promised to me by a buddy off an older Cub Cadet at the very least. Everything was/is practically ready to go and will be easy to assemble and get going. But as of yesterday, I was told by my dad to scrap or sell it. It will not be scrapped, but I have too much into this project to sell it at this point. I’m hoping he’ll have a “senior moment” and forget about it. Hopefully then he won’t notice the “new” tractor mowing the grass 😀. And thank you @Chris727 for the throttle cable.

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Austin
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Bill725
10 hours ago, Austin said:

But I plan to tear into it soon and replace both axle seals

Most likely the axle tube bushings are worn causing the seals to leak. There are several posts machining the case for needle bearings.

Edited by Bill725
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