Sovereign safety switch?

[Wilbur643]

It looks like I have two safety switches on my 75th Sov, seat and  forward and reverse lever. I need to test them I think one is not working, are they an open or closed  switch.

[PhanDad]

There are 3 safety switches on your tractor, the two you listed and the third on the PTO (cone clutch).  The wiring diagram:

Prior to the 1990's Sovereigns, the switches were normally open.  But looking at the above wiring diagram (which has more detail than the older Simplicity wiring diagrams), the PTO and Trans switches show a normally closed and the seat switch as normally open.  HOWEVER BASED ON THE Triad engined Sovereign wiring diagram shown below, ALL THE SAFETY SWITCHES ARE NORMALLY OPEN.  

PS - the wiring diagram is for a Command powered Sovereign - the interlock wiring is the same for the Triad powered Sovereigns.  

 

Edited August 30 by PhanDad
Revised statement about safety switches

[Wilbur643]

2 hours ago, PhanDad said:

There are 3 safety switches on your tractor, the two you listed and the third on the PTO (cone clutch).  The wiring diagram:

Prior to the 1990's Sovereigns, the switches were normally open.  But looking at the above wiring diagram (which has more detail than the older Simplicity wiring diagrams), the PTO and Trans switches show a normally closed and the seat switch as normally open.  I've never tested the newer PTO/Trans switches on my 75th.  Maybe I'm interpreting the wiring diagram incorrectly.  

I'll curious as to what others say and what you find.  

PS - the wiring diagram is for a Command powered Sovereign - the interlock wiring is the same for the Triad powered Sovereigns.  

 

So how do I test the switches and the connecters with my multimeter to to tell if their are working. The sov has been sitting for a couple of years, I replaced the old battery and put some new fuel in it. It turned over fine and was getting fuel to the carb but not firing. I test everything with my test light and and it all had 12volts but no fire to the plugs. Now it won't even turn over. I have many shortcoming electrical is one of them. Also what does the interlock module actually do?

Edited August 30 by Wilbur643

[SmilinSam]

I may be mistaken, but I think the only safety that will cut the spark off to the plugs would be the seat safety. Cranking the tractor is usually only interupted by either the Motion control safety or the PTO safety.

 I dont like the newer safety systems because they use interlock modules that allow for  the switches to do multiple things depending on what position the other safeties are in within the system. Makes doing testes more difficult if not impossible without the proper testing tools to use with the interlock system.

Some systems allow for the tractor to run without the operator in the seat as long as the tractor is in neutral and the PTO is off. Others will only let the tractor run with no operator if the parking brake is also engaged.

Used to be that unplugging the seat switch and putting a jumper in would by[ass the seat safety. That changed somewhere after the advent of the interlock system. I mostly notice it in the 2003 and newer machines. In my experience  Conquests, broadmoors, prestiges and Regents etc  have a different type of plug going to the seat safety. There a switch function of sorts also on the connector itself. IE , you cant just unplug it and put a jumper in. The connecter HAS to be plugged in for the system to work.. This means that the connector itself is yet another component that can go bad.

 I dont know that you tractor has any of this newer stuff in it, but it could.

Edited August 30 by SmilinSam

[PhanDad]

2 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

I think the only safety that will cut the spark off to the plugs would be the seat safety. Cranking the tractor is usually only interupted by either the Motion control safety or the PTO safety.

Correct for the 75th.

 

2 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

Some systems allow for the tractor to run without the operator in the seat as long as the tractor is in neutral and the PTO is off.

Correct for the 75th.

 

2 hours ago, SmilinSam said:

Used to be that unplugging the seat switch and putting a jumper in would by[ass the seat safety.

I believe this is also true for the 75th.  

 

The "newest" Sovereign interlock functionality (from the Operator's Manual):

For "Test 4" I believe the statement is incorrect since the Sovereign PTO is manually engaged/disengaged (likely copied from a newer tractor with electric PTO).  However the function is accomplished, although slower, when the engine is killed.  

 

 

 

[PhanDad]

3 hours ago, Wilbur643 said:

So how do I test the switches and the connecters with my multimeter to to tell if their are working. The sov has been sitting for a couple of years, I replaced the old battery and put some new fuel in it. It turned over fine and was getting fuel to the carb but not firing. I test everything with my test light and and it all had 12volts but no fire to the plugs. Now it won't even turn over. I have many shortcoming electrical is one of them. Also what does the interlock module actually do?

The initial status (cranking with fuel) could be one of two issues - engine kill wire still grounded preventing spark or no power to the carb fuel solenoid preventing fuel from flowing into the carb.  I would lean toward the grounded kill wire.

This drawing shows the functionality of the wires to the engine connector:

Check to see if the ignition kill wire is still grounded when the ignition switch is in "run" and the seat is occupied, PTO off, and the tranny in neutral.  

To test the safety switches, disconnect the wiring connector and use your multimeter to check the resistance across the switch - with the PTO in the off position there should be no resistance across the switch; tranny in neutral, no resistance.  If there's resistance (usually infinite) the switch may have vibrated loose and is no longer being depressed enough or the switch is faulty.  For the seat switch, when it's depressed there should be no resistance across it. 

  

[Bill725]

75th OEM engine is a Triad. A possible engine swap the cause of electrical issue?

[PhanDad]

31 minutes ago, Bill725 said:

75th OEM engine is a Triad. A possible engine swap the cause of electrical issue?

You are so right!  

But that makes the engine connector so much simpler.  Just the white kills wire and red/blue trace "battery" charge connector as shown in the Triad engined Sovereign wiring diagram:

The safety interlock system setup is the same.  And the Triad also has the fuel shutoff solenoid on the carb.  

Also note the Trans and PTO safety switches are labeled "N.O." although they are shown closed.  

 

[Wilbur643]

4 hours ago, Bill725 said:

75th OEM engine is a Triad. A possible engine swap the cause of electrical issue?

Original Triad.

[Bill725]

FYI, the Triad starter Bendix gear uses centrifugal force to move the Bendix gear into the flywheel ring gear to start. The Bendix gear does get dirty and needs to be cleaned and dry lubed occasionally. Whereas, the Command has a solenoid mounted on the starter which forces the Bendix into the flywheel ring gear.

[Wilbur643]

When I put a new battery and some fresh fuel it turned over fine, gas going to the carb just no spark. After checked all my wiring for 12v with my test light the lights and the amp meter work but won't turn over now. I'm going to remove the dash cover, it's far easier to test the majority of the wiring behind the battery, does it matter if the amp meter is disconnected? So the PTO switch is located were, also Bill were can I find al the wiring diagrams you posted I would like to have a printed copy of them, much easier to look at when tracing down wires.  

[PhanDad]

Before removing the dash cover, I'd jumper the seat connector and see if there's any change.  

The PTO switch is located on the side of the frame, under the tractor near the engagement handle; it's visible at the 7 o'clock position in this pic (ignore red arrow):

 

The electrical diagrams are from the 1999 Simplicity Electrics Manual; it's available in the Downloads Forum:  

https://simpletractors.com/files/file/320-simplicity-electrical-information-manual-1999/ 

 

[Wilbur643]

The seat switch was jumped by the original owner (the local dealer him shelf) when I bought it many years ago, small pin running through the two wires on the connector, found that out when I was removing the seat a few years ago, OUCH. Maybe I need to try jumping again.

So if I set my multimeter to ohm and check the two disk on the back of the the trans and PTO switches (177522) disconnected should I get resistance or not if their good?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31 by Wilbur643

[PhanDad]

1 hour ago, Wilbur643 said:

The seat switch was jumped by the original owner

Make sure the jumper is still "good" (no resistance between wires)

 

1 hour ago, Wilbur643 said:

So if I set my multimeter to ohm and check the two disk on the back of the the trans and PTO switches (177522) disconnected should I get resistance or not if their good?

Connect the multimeter leads to the switch pins.  With the hydro control lever in neutral (PTO lever disengaged), there should be zero resistance.  When the hydro lever is in forward or reverse (PTO lever engaged), there should be infinite resistance.  

Typical safety switch showing pins:

 

[Wilbur643]

I haven't checked to PTO switch yet but will today, the trans and seat switches are good. I appreciate all information here, so if the PTO switch turns out to be good where do I go from there? As I said in the beginning, when I pulled it out of the shed and put a new battery and fuel in it it turned over fine just no spark. Before I started it I turned the key to on, lights and amp meter worked I heard the carb solenoid click so I assume it is working. 

 

[ShaunE]

If any of the three safety switches on my Triad 75th or Early Command Sovereigns are not satisfied, the engines won’t even turn over. So if you're saying your engine turns over but has no spark, I don’t think you have a safety switch problem. I’m not an electrical guru & have been trying to follow along but I feel like I’m missing something. I’d verify you truly don’t have spark with two of the light bulb type spark testers. 

[Wilbur643]

56 minutes ago, ShaunE said:

If any of the three safety switches on my Triad 75th or Early Command Sovereigns are not satisfied, the engines won’t even turn over. So if you're saying your engine turns over but has no spark, I don’t think you have a safety switch problem. I’m not an electrical guru & have been trying to follow along but I feel like I’m missing something. I’d verify you truly don’t have spark with two of the light bulb type spark testers. 

Sorry I was just reiterating what I first posted and I left out the part about it not turning over now. When I first tried to start it turned over great, just wouldn't fire. Hit the carb with a shot of carb cleaner a couple of times, it didn't even pop. That is when I used my test light to check some of the wiring, after checking it look like everything it needed to start had 12 volts so I reinstalled the battery and now is won't even turn over.

[gwiseman]

PTO switch and hydro lever switch on my sovereign are touchy. PTO must be fully in off position or it wont turn over. Same is true for Hydro but it's easier to adjust for me. 

[Wilbur643]

Guys , the wife and I are at the  camp in Alabama for the next couple of weeks, maybe it always depends on the heat and the hurricanes this time of year. When I get back I'll start back on the Sov. and let you know when I get it started🙄. I appreciate all the help so far, I'm sure it's something simple since it did turn over but not fire at first but after me trying run down the no fire issue it doesn't even turn over. Also it does have a breaker do I test it the same way as a fuse?