Power steering Sovereign (updated)

[Brettw]

Gonna need a bit of help here guys. I ran across a power Steering Sovereign in rather excellent condition.  It is quite obvious it has very few hours on it.  The PO was a young guy who stated it had been sitting for over a decade and was going to use it (don't know the whole back story, inheritance, estate maybe?) and, anyway, the power steering unit isn't working.  We got it started up and it sounds so completely solid and quiet, but the power steering unit barely responds at all.  He had it looked at by a small engine joint and they said the steering sector is likely shot.  So, as I am not very familiar with the steering components what am I going to need to do here?  Is it possible seals and o-rings have dried out from sitting?  The tractor is too clean and runs out like it's new.  I can't believe the steering head unit would fail with such (apparent but not verified) low hours.  

 

I would appreciate some guidance.  Thanks all.

Edited September 26, 2024 by Brettw

[CarlH]

Which Sovereign PS system? The early assisted PS system or the later Sunstar equivalent system?

[Brettw]

Later version.  Late 90's with a Command.

[PhanDad]

I'll assume it's the new style PS system; however was it a factory install? (MFG# will tell).  If not, maybe it wasn't plumbed correctly.  

First I'd check stuff you probably already have: tranny fluid full and pressure is correct.  With the hydro lift lever full up (maybe down, or either-CRS) let the lift cylinder travel to end of stroke, it'll force the high pressure RV into action and maybe unstick itself if that's an issue.  @HubbardRA described the fluid flow years back:

The fluid flows through the hydrolift side of the tranny before going
on to the drive section. The gauge port is actually in the hydrolift
section. While the hydrolift valve is completely open, the only
pressure built up is that used in the hydrostatic drive and the gauge
will show that pressure. This should run in the neighborhood of 250
psi if I remember correctly. When the hydrolift valve is closed, then
the pressure will rise to the hydrolift pressure and the gauge will
show that pressure. This should always be below 800 psi. If your
tranny is slow and jerky and the hydrolift valve is sticking, then you
need to rebuild the hydrolift valve. It is most likely gummed up
internally and not allowing free flow to go on to the tranny.  

Yesterday @Chris727 also uploaded a PS valve repair video you may want to review:

https://simpletractors.com/files/file/352-power-steering-unit-service-video/

Maybe it has some ideas.  

[PhanDad]

Also in the Downloads Forum is the Parker Service Manual for the valve:

https://simpletractors.com/files/file/339-rossparker-hydraguide-hgf-series-service-procedure/

 

[Ronald Hribar]

I am assuming the tractor movers forward and back.

and the hydro lift works properly.

and I think Brett has worked with power steering issue's before.

I would make sure the shims are in the proper places under the valves

and the valves are reversed.

[Brettw]

Already, thanks for the help, all.  I may be jumping the gun a bit here, as I haven't brought the tractor home yet; I'm picking it up this week.  But the small engine / lawnmower repair place he took it to is a good business.  I am assuming they did all of the hydro 101 stuff and checked fluid level, etc.  (and it would be great if I was wrong and they didn't check the fluid level and that's the easy issue) The tractor did move back and forth as it should when I tried it in a very limited space, but again, the steering would not respond to speak of, only a very slight bit.

As I said, I'm jumping the gun, but I am excited about this find, and if I need to rebuild the steering sector (if that's the correct term) or valve, I wanted to begin with it in my mind.  I find that is the best way to approach issues, repairs, or a build.  Be it tractors, or homes, or furniture or whatever.  It keeps me awake at night sometimes, but if I have read a lot of material or thought it through from every angle, before I even start, it helps me when I begin the project, as I have already worked on it and am somewhat familiar with it, in my mind.

So, I'm going to be perusing what Bill has sent, and use my past experience with these (limited to external items, never the internals of yet), to get ready for the worst.  Or maybe just add a quart or so of tranny fluid and be the spittin' image of a Cheshire Cat.  😁

[CarlH]

On the late Sovereign PS there is no sector (gear).  The Parker Sovereign PS valve is the same as the Sunstar PS valve.  If it needs repair, I would look for a used unit.  They are also used on various Deere (and other brands) models.

There are issues with the later PS system on the Sovereigns.  Same components as used on the Sunstars but issues.  This info from a Deere guy MAY address those issues:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/65942-sunstar-20-steering-vs-john-deere-power-steering/#comment-526807

 

 

Recently, I blew a power steering hose on my 318 only to find I had no fittings to make a new one. I have sold hundreds of these hoses over the past several years and was all out of hose ends! The original hoses are made from 1/4" ID hydraulic hose.

So I started digging. I found I had the correct fittings for the larger 3/8" hose so I made two new hoses. After installation, it was back to mowing. I fired up and headed back to the yard. To my surprise, the steering worked better than ever. The tractor was easier to turn and responded quicker!

Well, I had to understand what was going on and started thinking about how the steering worked. I began to surmise that the hydraulic steering on these tractors is really a low pressure high flow system. Doesn't take much pressure to turn the wheels but the fluid must flow quickly for the steering to be responsive. I looked at the difference in the hose ends between 1/4" and 3/8" realized the 3/8" hose end is way bigger than the 1/4" hose end. So much bigger that it makes a significant difference in the performance of the tractor.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2024 by CarlH

[Brettw]

Hmmm.  Following up on this, this may be why I had always experienced slow reaction and steering with the Sovereigns I had in the past.  I had restored / repaired three of them, always wanted one and tried three times. All of them were slow in response and wandered all over the place.  Totally different from my experience with my Sunstars, and I was of the impression the pumps and power steering units were the same between the two.  So I could not figure out why the Sunstars worked so well and the Sovereigns, not so much.  Sold every one of them.

 

But now I guess I'm going to try one more time, with one that doesn't appear to work at all.  Some guys never learn...............

 

[Tarheel]

 Brettw, Is that the same steering valve (Thinking TRW ?) As the Sunstars used back in the late 80-early 90s ? We had a rash of those that would start leaking and pushing fluid out from under the steering wheel back then and I had to go through maybe 10 or so. Not much fun but nothing that can't be done. Main thing was marking the body of the valve before taking it apart.

  If that were my machine and it didn't leak, I think I'd start it and let it run for an hour so the fluid could move through all the parts. Could be it would free up on its own. Only cost maybe a gallon of fuel if it did.

[Brettw]

Whelp, here's the skinny:  Good news / bad news, good news is really good, bad news is very livable.  Picked up the tractor, and with closer attention to everything, it was acting as if it was low on fluid.  Got it home, checked, it took 1-1/2 quarts and probably could have taken more after cycling the lift, etc.  However, that was why the power steering was not working (really good news).  It still seemed a bit sluggish however.  After a quick test run / lap around the driveway, I noticed it's leaking fluid quite badly, hence the low trans fluid. (somewhat bad news)  It's coming from the front of the PS cylinder, seal must be shot.   I do believe that should be much easier to repair or replace than the steering valve.  So that is where I will start my research for repairs, or keep a lookout for a good used one.

 

The tractor itself is in excellent condition.  Came with a deck mounted turbo vac and rear mount trailer, hoses, etc. (you can see the trailer in the background) A better understanding now of its history is that it was the guy I bought it from's dad.  His parents divorced a bit over 20 years ago and it pretty much sat since.  Starts and runs very quiet and smooth, and I think once that cylinder is repaired / replaced, it will be an A-1 example of these.  It even has the Command and not the Triad, so it must be a very late model?

Anyway, a great deal, complete turbo vac setup and if I can get the cylinder fixed or repaired in time, she's going to work come leaf season.

Edited September 27, 2024 by Brettw

[PhanDad]

The tractor looks to be very clean.  

As to the PS cylinder, I think you have to cut the wall to replace the seal (hopefully I'm wrong - and it looks like I'm wrong).  There is cylinder seal replacement kit available:

Above from the PS Kit MFG# 1692856 Install instructions.    

 

1 hour ago, Brettw said:

It even has the Command and not the Triad, so it must be a very late model?

Triad's were in the latest model Sovereigns.  You tractor is probably at MFG# 1692798, a 1996 or 97 model.  

 

Edited September 26, 2024 by PhanDad
Revised statement about cutting cylinder wall

[Brettw]

So far my research seems to be it needs to be cut open to rebuild it.  It looks like it's about 450 bux to rebuild one, and cutting it open and re-welding it are beyond my skill set. There are some on flea-bay and some of those will bring tears to your eyes.  The cheapest date looks like about $250.  .  There is a NOS one on flea-bay for 450 / best offer, and a used but tested good for 295 / best offer.  I'm inclined to spend the higher amount because the tractor is worth the investment (heck, the paint on the running boards isn't even worn).  I believe they are the same as a Sunstar too, so I guess I could wait and see, but I would like to get it done. 

Those pics are how I picked it up, it hasn't even had a bath yet.

[Brettw]

From a different perspective, why would they weld a cylinder shut like that?  No way to easily service it seems like a dumb way to manufacture these.  Wouldn't a screw on end be just as effective?  Too much pressure/torque?  Save a few bux? I just am not understanding is, so if anyone knows why they would manufacture this way, please speak up.

[PhanDad]

1 hour ago, Brettw said:

Save a few bux?

That's my guess.  

 

[Brettw]

So now its got me to thinking.  When welding this together, what prevents the heat from damaging O-rings and seals?  

[ShaunE]

@Brettw Call this place. Last one I had done was $150. It’s been a couple years.

[PhanDad]

On 9/26/2024 at 3:22 PM, Brettw said:

Came with a deck mounted turbo vac and rear mount trailer, hoses, etc.

Just noticed in the pic of the discharge side of the deck, the front/back stone guard that supports the turbo is missing.  A pic:

Hopefully it's with the turbo.  

 

[Brettw]

1 hour ago, PhanDad said:

Hopefully it's with the turbo.  

  I haven't had the time to assemble it all yet to see what might be missing but that part is with the other stuff.  I haven't seen any elbow, just a straight vac pipe, some type of cover for the trailer and some other misc. stuff, hinged deck chute , etc.

[Brettw]

5 hours ago, ShaunE said:

Call this place. Last one I had done was $150. It’s been a couple years.

I'll give 'em a call, Shaun.  If that's the case, that's pretty reasonable for what I am finding.  I was quoted a starting at  350 price from another place.  If that's going to be the case, I'm going to try to buy the NOS one on flea bay.

[PhanDad]

20 hours ago, Brettw said:

  I haven't had the time to assemble it all yet to see what might be missing but that part is with the other stuff.  I haven't seen any elbow, just a straight vac pipe, some type of cover for the trailer and some other misc. stuff, hinged deck chute , etc.

Usually the stone guard is left on the tractor when the turbo is removed.

No elbow - straight connection to turbo blower:

(No hinged deck chute in my setup)

 

Operator and Parts manuals are still available at Simplicity Manuals site.  

Turbo blower MFG# 1692257

Cart MFG# 1691526

 

[Brettw]

Well, I did find a cylinder on E-bay for a reasonable price in good used condition.  Installed and working as it should (or, better stated, as all the previous PS Sovereigns I have had).  Gave it a half hour run cutting grass and then changed out the fluid and filter.  Tractor was running solid and smooth, but near the end it started acting up and it needed the choke on to keep running.  I will have to clean the carb, undoubtedly something in it from the long time sitting.  Now I just have to read up on how the grass catcher cover contraption sets up.  Everything appears to be there, but I'm not quite sure how it sets up to create the cover over the trailer.

[Brettw]

Working on getting the vac all set up to see how it fits and works.  I have my son set up with the same turbo vac, but a different baggins system.  So when I was struggling to get this to properly hook up I didn't recall it being difficult at all.  Then I see the stamping on the bracket "42 only".  Now whether that's just the mounting bracket or the whole vac I am not sure.  The vac seems to cover the exit area of the deck and when I completely disconnected the bracket and shifted it it looks like it will work, I will just have to drill some new holes to line it up. 

It seems to me it would be awfully wasteful and inefficient to engineer a completely different turbo vac for the the 42" vs the 48"?

[PhanDad]

I seem to remember it’s a dual use bracket - one way for 48” deck, other way for 42”

[Brettw]

 

20 minutes ago, PhanDad said:

I seem to remember it’s a dual use bracket - one way for 48” deck, other way for 42”

This bracket seems to say 42 only, so maybe there is a different dual purpose bracket? Looking on Parts Tree (my favorite go to for exploded views of assemblies and parts and part numbers for just about anything you can think of), and cannot find anything that indicates a different blower for 42" decks.  And it does list the 48" bracket, available for about $19 (plus shipping).  I believe I can adapt the 42" bracket, but drilling extra holes and perhaps not being lined up exactly as it should gives me pause.