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SmilinSam

Dealer Rip Off of All times!

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SmilinSam
Know a guy (a trusting soul) east of here a ways who took his power lift in to his dealer (who I know does not have the greratest repution anyhow) to get it rebuilt. When he got it back the dealer handed him an $800 bill!.......and this guy Paid it! We told him he got ripped off BIG Time. Why, I can have a motor unit completey rewired and rewound and the switch gone through for about $75...and I only sell these units used for $150 or so. Gotta be the all time biggest rip off I have heard of by a dealer. Sam

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powerking_one
I know Sam, It's the the closest thing to legalized robbery and you cite just one example/sample of what goes on thousands of times a day in the country. On an organized corporate scale, look a what Onan charges for parts in general(especially the older CCK-A, B) engines! The "A" regulator-rectifier now goes for over $300? That's why I embarked on a project to un-pot and repair my brother's 4040 reg/rect. I'll post pics and do a write-up of it when complete. Tom(PK)

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HubbardRA
This is why I do not usually go to dealers if I don't have to. Big repair prices to make you buy new tractors. Many times the hardware is rebuilt by very unknowing and unskilled personnel and won't work when they are finished. There are quite a few good places around, but there are lots of rip-off joints. If you do it yourself, you may break some parts while you are learning, but you will know what was done and exactly what parts were replaced. Rod H.

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Guest
Just think of the money saved if the poor guy wouldve taken the time to look around for someone who could point him in the right direction, (like yourself sam). It literally pays to ask sometimes, which is how i came to find this sight......i learned in school to sorround myself with smart people, to make up for my ignorance of course, and that is why im here. It always pays to ask for an ESTIMATE as well. That way, you have an idea how bad it could be, the dealer then has to at least tell you what may need to be fixed, you can at that point set limits. Does the incedent tempt you to start chargin 800 dollars Sam? Your a good man for being honest. Dougm

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JonetteP
This is in response to powerkings problems with his brothers charging circuit. You can have the stator rewound to kohler specs, and use the kohler reg/rec, we have done a number of them this way. You will have to cut a hole in the fan shroud to cool the back of the reg/rec. It is well worth the effort. Less headaches. No crawling under the tractor to check stuff. I will find out the information needed and post it under the do- it yourself area. Take Care neal

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Dadsy98
Tom, Kohler charges $230.00 for a 15 Amp rectifier/regulator !!! I am curious about unpotting the unit I have. Is the potting material a thermoplastic? would a propane torch loosen and melt off the goo or just toast the innards? Chipping it away sounds too destructive. How did you remove the material? Steve

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HubbardRA
On a 16 Hp Kohler with a 15 amp alternator, I hooked up a 25 amp bridge rectifier (Radio Shack I think) to convert the AC to DC, then I used a voltage regulator from a starter/generator. Worked fantastic. You can buy this type of regulator at TSC for about $35. Many ways to do these setups. Just make sure the regulator will take as much or more current than the alternator is putting out. Rod H.

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powerking_one
Steve, I will be posting a complete write-up of the CCK-A reg/rect successful rebuild project shortly; complete with pictures, schematic, and stripping methods/materials used. I'd recommend not using heat, it will damage the fiberglass-epoxy circuit board. I'm still researching for a commercial potting material remover chemical. Stay tuned, Tom(PK)

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HubbardRA
Tom, Here where I work, we design numerous electronic packages for military use. I talked to some of the electrical engineers. None of them know of any type of stripper that removes potting without ruining the circuit. Heat will definitely kill the electronics. The guys I talked to say they no longer use potting because of the repairability problem. If they do have to repair a potted unit, they very carefully chip out the potting with Dremel tools, Xacto knives, and dental picks. Rod H.

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Leroy
Cryogenicly( spel chekr dint have the word) the potting material will be reduced prior to the rubber wire sheathing. the probability of the componts being useless are high. But the numerical data on the components may still be recognizeable. Liquid nitrogen will do the job. Psst dont use your hands. Be a tool user if you play with liquid nitrogen. I dont know of the availabilty or NEW laws concerning the handling of the product. But if you have access to it. Do a dip emmersion of the unit for 3 seconds. pull it out and drop it on a tool steel slab. or simular hard surface not the kitchen floor. dont hammer it. if you notice fine cracks use another 3 seconds. If no cracks try 4 seconds. I have used Liquid Nitrogen for doing Charpy tests those are metal rectangles with a notch and un notched center. the fracture is always brittle. but we only held it immersed for 10 seconds. That is a extream long time for non metalic material what could happen is fragmentation upon impact. Yes Safety glasses should be worn and welding gloves. for the thermal protection. It is a safe thing to do ask those who understand the care and use of the Liquid. Leroy

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powerking_one
Leroy, Sorry to differ with your method, but: A) Liquid nitrogen is a little to pricey and hard to obtain for us regular guys. B) The thermal shock will likely destroy more than just the potting material; ie cracked resistors, diodes, etc. C) The low temperature range for "non-operating conditions" of the components would most certainly be exceeded resulting in damage or at least decreased life/and or intermiittent operation thereof. Thumbs down, Tom(PK)

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thedaddycat
You could always switch to Alternate Plan B: design and build your own. Though I have not done it yet, I have seen posted above Rod got a (I think) full wave bridge rectifier from Radio Shack and made a unit that worked to his satisfaction. Was it the stock regulator for the S/G? Can you send me more info? I have a B&S 16 twin that I want to put in the 3310. I could just run direct loss since my only load is the electric lift and I have a 650 CCA car battery in it, but if I can get this thing to work easily I'd rather go that route. Thanks, Kirk

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BigSix
You Guys are downright dangerous--and I love it! In one, short, innocent little post, we got military defense contractors, tubs of liquid nitrogen (I've seen exactly one tanker truck of this stuff in my life, and the little gas cloud coming out of it's chimney and all the bright warning signs impressed me no end!) and people who know what "full wave" and "bridge" rectifiers are.... Here's an idea for a second career/hobby income: you guys should slap together a repower kit for some econobox car, (Civic? Tercel?) making it a hybrid-powered vehicle, and sell it on the internet, to the same people who bought those hand-drawn VW shop manuals in the '70's! Or maybe just build one prototype, complete with pics and test history, and sell the MANUAL (less liability). A source of renewable income for you, at little effort, once you've got it done. (I'll [ghost]write the manual, once you tell me what to say. Ever tried to sue a ghost? LoL!) You'll need to engineer a regenerative braking system into the package, if you want to keep up with Saturn and the Japanese.... But seriously, if anyone's got the time, what are what "full wave" and "bridge" rectifiers? (I mean, a short answer--I'm not asking for a "How To" treatment of the subject, as I'm just curious--it's not worth that level of effort on your part[s].) Am I correct in thinking that a rectifier does what an inverter does, i.e., changes AC to DC, or vice versa? Is a transformer on a kid's trainset also converting AC into DC? If so, why are there three words for the conversion of direct to alternating current, or vice versa, i.e., rectifier, transformer, inverter? Or perhaps the transformer is just "stepping down" the 110 AC to a lesser AC voltage and amperage? If that's the case, what is the difference between a rectifier and an inverter? I remain in awe of the expertise on this site. Peter

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thedaddycat
There are different terms because as you note, they describe different manipulations of power. Here is a very basic description. A rectifier converts AC to DC. A bridge rectifier uses diodes(which only allow current to flow in one direction) to convert the AC sine wave to a DC waveform. It's kind of hard to describe, but if you imagine the sine wave with the lower half cut off that's close. It looks like a hump-flat-hump-flat wave for a half wave rectifier, since it is only converting half of the AC sine wave to DC. A full wave rectifier converts both the upper and lower halves of the AC sine wave so the DC wave looks like hump-hump-hump-hump. Both of these examples would be for two full cycles of the AC wave. An inverter converts DC to AC. Some just convert it to a square wave form, others convert it to step-wave forms which more closely mimic the true AC sine wave. A transformer converts AC of a given voltage to AC of another voltage. The ratio of primary windings to secondary windings will determine the operating parameters of the transformer, be it step up, down, or just an isolation transformer(1:1) which transfers power without having an actual connection between the two circuits. In transformers, if you step up voltage you step down the current(power remains constant). This is why transmission lines are run up to extremely high voltages. It's easier to push high voltage/low current across distances, then transform it back down to distribute it locally.

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Leroy
Tom(PK) I was offering that info for those who may have the liquid available and i did state that the components would no doubt be useless but you may be able to read the part numbers off the components. If it works why in the world would we be taking it apart anyway? So you want to differ, what is your idea? Leroy

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Leroy
Step up, step down. No it is not arobics. all that AC-DC rectifying, full wave, chopped wave and modifed square waves, square wave, delta phase, Sheesh . Where's the recipe? (jokeing) I will never get all that understood no matter how many times i hear it. What helps me to understand electronics is the diagrams. If the objects are labeled in the diagram i can start to comprehend if i stare at it long enough. The electrical diagram for the engine and the engineers statement on the theory of operation. I'm dingy as to why one would be different than another. Given that they(machines) that have points and condenser should use a standard volt regulator and why would you need a rectifer unless you going to hook up a coffee pot to the mower oops tractor? I really do want to know the difference in the electrical systems and how to modify them with off the shelf parts. Also locally i have attempted to get into a class for small engines seems none avail in past two years. Leroy

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thedaddycat
I got the newest Northern Tool& Equipment catalog recently. On page 311 in the lower right corner is a pic of the wave forms for ture sine and modified sine waves. Hope that helps. If you have an older one available, look in the index for "inverters".

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BigSix
Daddycat: Thank you! That was excellent--I say that because I could understand it. Electrical theory both fascinates and frustrates me...more of one than the other--LoL! Have you been hanging out with Al and Les? Seriously, do you have an E.E. degree? I hope so. I get depressed by guys that just seem to "pick stuff up" yet obviously know know it cold. I'll "sine" off now, and "wave" goodbye. You've certainly "rectified" my understanding of that terminology. In fact, you might say I feel "transformed." Does that "shock" you? Uh oh, I hope there's no"resistance" to punning on this site--I wouldn't want to "isolate" myself. Peter

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thedaddycat
I have a doctorate in applied reality..... lol Actually, I don't have anything but my highschool diploma. However, I was a nuke Electronics Technician in the Navy and have a lot of experience playing with just about everything I can get my hands on. I guess that makes me a regular idiot rather than a college educated idiot........ lol

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