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ChrisACB-112

Hydro conversion?

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ChrisACB-112
I have a B-112 repowered to a 16 hp. I'm trying to make the thing easier for my kids to start using and would like to convert it to a hydro (I also simply like the idea of the hydro better than the vari-drive). Has anyone any experience/advice with such a swap? If that's not enough, I'd like to keep the 3 speed tranny by just puting an off-the-shelf hydro motor on the frame and driving the 3 speed with a belt. I'm pretty good with fabrication, but I don't know things like how many gpm the original pump produced and how much cooling the hydro would need (does the heat come from the hydro tranny or from the pump?). Is the pump variable (i.e axial) or the hydro tranny? Any thoughts?

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MikeES
The easiest to find a HB212 or HB112 with a bad motor and a good hydro. Break it apart at the BGB and bolt it to your B212 >> voila! Also a 3012h, 3112h, 3212h will be a direct fit. With little modification to connection rod and control lever you can make a 3300 or 3400 series Simplicity work also. These are all Vickers hydros. For much more work you can put a later hydro (Sunstrand) in it also. See Kent's conversion of his B212 to an HB216. Good Luck! Mike S.

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thedaddycat
Here are two such stories, from Kent and Smilin' Sam....... http://www.simpletractors.com/do_it/variable_to_hydro.htm http://www.simpletractors.com/do_it/variable_to_hydro2.htm

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PatRarick
Check these two links: [url]http://www.simpletractors.com/do_it/variable_to_hydro.htm[/url] [url]http://www.simpletractors.com/do_it/variable_to_hydro2.htm[/url] Both are beautiful jobs. I don't know what Kent or Sam's feelings are, but my opinion is that, as an upgrade or repair, it isn't worth the time and trouble UNLESS you like doing that sort of thing as a hobby. I do, and am designing a similar project to be completed on a B-10. Pat

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Kent
I did this for several reasons -- my B-210 had been used long and hard: 1. My variable speed was VERY WORN 2. My bevel gear box was about to go... between the slop in the front pulley's keyway and the gear lashing inside, the pulley would move about 7/8" back and forth... 3. My center PTO was also VERY WORN and needed replaced or rebuilt. Even the holes in the frame rails where it hangs were elongated, and would have needed welding up and re-drilling... Since I had to take the tractor apart from the BGB back, I decided to swap out everything from the BGB back. Later model Sundstrand hydro, cone clutch PTO, and a good used BGB... The difficult part is dealing with the linkage for the tranny and PTO -- everything else is basically bolt on.... Kent The foot-draggin' Clubhouse Custodian...

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HubbardRA
Nearly any hydro that is attached to a BGB that bolts to the frame with the four bolts will fit. The Hydro in my AC716H will bolt in, but will probably make your tractor longer. At one time I installed the 3 speed tranny from my 61 Wards into the AC 716H for tractor pulling. I had to make a spacer/adapter about 6 inches long to get the rear wheels back where they should be. If If I put the hydro in the older Wards tractor the wheelbase would be about 6 inches longer. They are in the correct chassis now, but I know the interchange. You will need to fabricate/modify hydro, clutch/brake, and PTO linkages. Rod H.

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Kent
In these oldies, the hydros and variable speeds are the same length, and both are 4" longer than the standard 3-speeds. The replacement of my variable speed with a hydro didn't change the length of the tractor. I used the Sundstrand hydro out of an Allis 716 (Simplicity 7016 equivalent). It's the older type with the remote filter between the frame rails. The foot-draggin' Clubhouse Custodian...

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ChrisACB-112
Thanks everybody for all the great feedback. Guess the short answer is 'go for it'. I'm not so interested in replacing the tranny with a hydro tranny. I want to keep the three speed by driving an off-the-shelf hydro motor from the vickers/sunstrand hydro pump. So, now for some more questions; Is the pump driven off the engine variable (i.e. axial) or the transmission? Guess that would mean the linkage from the variable speed handle would connect either to the tranny (if it's variable) or the pump (if it's variable). So far I've not found any hydro motors that are variable - so I'm hoping that mean the vickers/sunstrand is the vairable part. If anyone could follow the linkage and let me know what they find, I'd be greatful. If I'm going to try to match the pump to an off-the-shelf hyro motor, I need to know the pressure (PSI) and volume (GPM) of the vickers/sunstrand. Anybody got more technical documentation for the either pump? Ron H. - I'm not certain I understand the setup you described? Did you run the pump off the BGB? How did you drive the tranny (or is the 716 tranny a hydro 3 speed?) I'd like to avoid driving off the BGB as it seems from all the postings here that the BGB is kinda a weak link. I'd rather just run the pump direct off either the engine or off the pulley on the firewall side of the engine. (seems to be some provision there for mounting something - I'm guessing that's where the hydro pump goes? ... which takes me to my next question) Could you post some pictures? Finally, I guess now's the time to ask if anyone has a spare vickers or sunstrand hydro they'd like to part with? Thanks again everybody.

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Dutch
Chris, The Sunstrand drive is a variable displacement axial pump & fixed displacement axial motor. It is in a single unit driven by a belt from the BGB. It replaces the 3 speed transmission. Good photos in the above links. The pump displacement is 0 - .913 cu. in. / rev. Motor displacement is .913 cu. in. Maximum operating pressure is 3000 PSI. Charge pump displacemnt is .33 cu. in. / rev. Charge relief setting is 5 - 150 PSI. If you want to keep the 3 speed transmission, it sounds like you want to build a hydraulic drive (ala Case) rather than a hydrostatic drive. Unlike hydrostatic drive, hydraulic drive has downhill “runaway” (could be dangerous for kids). True, the BGB is a “weak link”. They only last about 20 years before needing an overhaul. The BGB is also a structural part holding the front and rear of the tractor together. Without a BGB, there would be no center or rear PTO. Just about anything can be done, but what do you hope to gain?

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ChrisACB-112
Wow! Dutch you cleared up some questions for me. Thanks! None of the pictures I've seen included under the hood shots. I expected to see something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2054926714 under the hood and simply thought I couldn't see the hoses running to the tranny. Guess I was completly off. You asked "my goal(s)". Good question. I'm both trying to make the tractor easier/safer for my kids AND beefing up the drive train for heavier work - hence the reason for my BGB concerns. As the picture above implies, I expected to be able to route pulling power past the BGB and eliminate the vari-drive. I also expected to modify the linkage from the clutch/brake peddle to cause brake when you step off the peddle and max speed when you hold the peddle down. If the kids panic - everything stops. Given these goals, guess I've taken a big step backward, and I should have bought the e-bay item above (talked to the seller and he didn't make me too comfortable the item was in working condition - figured I'd get a working version from someone in simpletractors. A flawed plan.).

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Dutch
Chris, You may want to take at look at the Case/Colt tractor site > http://w3.one.net/~wduck/ Don’t sell Simplicity’s BGB short. It will handle all sorts of ground engaging implements, and will permit the tractor to pull 2,000 pounds plus. If you want something almost “bullet proof” for the kids, check out the mechanism on a golf cart……. Push pedal = go / Release pedal = stop. ************* Edited - Removed "too wide" image file so text can be read easily. Image can be accessed through above link.

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RATobin
Dutch, Can you explain what you mean by "Unlike hydrostatic drive, hydraulic drive has downhill “runaway” (could be dangerous for kids). " I have both Hydraulic driven machines and Hydrostatic machines (I know some people interchange the two). Neither type will coast downhill, at least the machines I have used(while running). Now with the engine off the hydraulic machines do seem to coast were the hydrostatic machines do not. Is that what you mean? Rob

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Dutch
Rob, What I mean by "runaway" is the tractor moving faster downhill than it would on level ground without moving the hydro lever (sort of like freewheeling). Do the "hydraulic" tractors you own have variable or fixed displacement pumps?

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RATobin
Dutch, "Do the "hydraulic" tractors you own have variable or fixed displacement pumps?" I am not sure, I have never paid attention, I believe my Scag Turf Tiger ZTR has two variable pumps, I do not recall any other control valve's. The model the Turf Tiger replaced had twin Hydrostatic transmissions (one case but two distinct sides, two of everything, except filter) The other machine is a mini-excavator (backhoe), I can see the drive motors but have never looked at the pump, it's very hard to see in it, very congested engine compartment. The backhoe is actually my brothers. Rob

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Dutch
Rob, As you already noted, “…some people interchange…” the terms Hydrostatic and Hydraulic. A hydrostatic transmission usually uses a variable-displacement hydraulic pump, driving a fixed-displacement hydraulic motor in a closed loop system trapping a fixed amount of system oil. Not so with a fixed displacement pump & motor in an open system. Confusion arises since most machines with hydrostatic drives also permit the operation of plain hydraulic motors and cylinders. But that is done through a separate circuit.

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ChrisACB-112
Thanks Dutch for the reply. As you'd expect I'm now investigating the Case pumps. Got a couple available from the link you gave me. Before going any further I need to know if the pump or motor are variable on a Case? Seems most of the hydro Case tractors use smaller engines than my 16 hp. Should I be concerned about using a Case pump with my engine? How are the Case pumps driven? ... thru a belt or a coupler (concerned about losing option of continuing to drive the mower thru the BGB)? Ok that's enough questions.

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Dutch
Chris, I know next to nothing about Case tractors, so I can't answer your questions intelligently. I have no problem seeing a tractor modified, but I also appreciate the convenience of an OEM machine. I must ask again, what do you hope to gain? If you want a hydro tractor, why not get a Case? If you want an Allis tractor with hydro, why not convert yours using Simplicity hydro parts, or trade yours on an Allis hydro tractor? Why do much work and gain nothing? Is there something I'm not understanding?

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ChrisACB-112
Dutch- To be brutally honest, nothing has ever been made that I didn't want to modify. I went to college to become a mechanical engineer, but the market was dead when I graduated, so I ended-up in software development. Should never have repressed my real passion - so now my hobby is tinkering/tweeking. Nobody's ever repaired something in my home, and I've only sent a car to a mechanic once in over 25 years (didn't have the time to replace a front-wheel drive tranny). If I owned a Case, I'm sure I'd want to modify something about it. I'm sick. Humor me. On another topic; my daughter mowed the lawn for the first time with my B-112 this last weekend. She loved it, but as I expected had trouble with the brake/clutch. and used the vari-drive alot. Just confirmed for me a hydro would be better. Finally, if anyone has a nice Case thry'd like to trade for a B-112 (repowered with a 16 hp) let me know). I really like my B-112 - it would be hard to let it go.

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