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BigSix

My Governor Is Slow....

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BigSix
And I'm not speaking about Mr. Pataki--I like him. The Landlord 2110, when mowing even 5" grass, only in 2nd gear, drops down from 3,600 rpm when mowing, to too slow. (I checked the no-load WOT RPM with my handy little Vibratach). Yet when I reach forward and open the throttle further, by turning shaft with my finger, while mowing, she speeds right up, smokes rich for a minute, and powers right through the grass toward max rpm. I mean, it roars through it, so it's not a lack of power, per se. As it doesn't burn oil, and feels like it's got decent compression, and again, does power right through the load, once I open the throttle, and runs fine until I either start uphill again, or hit heavier grass, I suspect that the governor is not "kicking in" fully, to open the throttle further, to compensate for the increased load. If I kick the PTO out of gear, the RPM immediately jumps up. Whether it goes all the way up to 3,600 rpm (actually, it hunts a little, per the Vibratach, and is sometimes WOT at 3,400-3,600 RPM) I couldn't say, as I haven't checked, but the governor DOES seem to be working, just not working hard enough.... (Like all politicians?) I attempted to correct this by placing the smaller of the two governor springs in the outermost hole in the governor arm (of the 5 that are available) i.e., the spring is now hooked out near the thinner, pointed end of the arm, NOT near the shaft that it pivots on, that disappears into the block to be turned by God-Knows-What. The spring was originally hooked midway, in hole #3--now it's out at the end. There is a second extension spring hooked right ON the end of the governor's arm, also pulling the governor's arm up. Does this sound like something I can fix externally, or that it is an internal-governor problem? Or something else? I should add that I have yet to rebuild the carb, which has a 1/32 or even a 1/16" airgap around the worn throttle shaft. Given the carb wear, the engine is tuned to idle high (like 2,000 plus, but I don't sit around idling much, so it's not a problem), cause it idles rough if it's set much below that. I have the kit, but not the motivation, to rebuild the carb...yet. Should I just shorten up the spring, to increase the tension, or buy a stiffer spring? Or will this cause premature wear of the internal governor parts inside the block? When I manually override the governor by raising the moving (pointed) end of the governor's arm, I can feel the arm forcing itself back down toward the ground, against my finger, to slow the RPM down. The arm does not seem to be binding at all. Thanks in advance.

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HubbardRA
Sounds like you may be going the wrong way if you are looking for lots of govenor response. A stiff spring has a high spring constant, meaning that there is little motion to produce a high load, or to relieve a load. What you may be looking for is a soft spring, mounted closer to the shaft, but with a lot of preload (stretched) when mounted properly. That way it takes a lot of govenor and throttle motion to relieve the tension on the spring when the engine slows down. Although a stiff spring will give higher rpm, a softer spring will give more throttle response. Remember that with a soft spring, it must be stretched more to produce the required rpm (same tension against governor), but requires larger motion in the opposite direction to relieve the load produced by the throttle cable. This is what makes the throttle open more when the engine lugs down. Rod H.

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BigSix
Rod: Thank you! I printed what you wrote, and if it ever dries out after all this rain, I will give it a rip. Per what Art sent me, from Mr. Perrault (whom I got the Vibratach from) I've been heading toward the wrong end of the governor arm, although my pivot shaft rotates opposite to the one in his example, but I don't think that invalidates his advice. Anyway, it's easy enough to switch holes, and give it a try. What you explained about soft springs seemed counter-intuitive at first, then as I thought about it, I think I've come to comprehend it. Thanks again. Art--thanks for the reference. I have read Mr. Perrault on governor's before, but forgot about him, and what an excellent resource he is. I will try these suggestions, and get back to you all. Thanks again, Peter

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KSever
About 3 weeks ago I read on here where AL posted a reply how to set your governor. Should try and find it, it might help. I printed it out when I read it but I forget what topic it was in reply about. Maybe AL can repost it again.

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BigSix
Update, and Two Questions: In removing the governor springs, to attempt to get new ones locally, one just broke. Needing to get mowing done, I bent a new hooked end on it, and put it on. I moved them both around, and got them where they run a max rpm of 3,600. Now, as I mow, the tractor has significantly more power than it had. I mean, I can mow in third gear where in second, it was lugging down, before. Now it either mows those places ok, or it lugs down in third, not second. So, beautiful, right? I will order new gov. springs (the correct ones) from SLI. But it raises a question: Rod, I understood what you were saying, i.e., lessen the spring tension to get a more responsive gov. And while that still makes sense to me, it appears that the machine runs better w/ more tension. I understand how this could be consistent with your observation that "Although a stiff spring will give higher rpm, a softer spring will give more throttle response...," but I guess what I learned today means I just needed the RPM's to hang in there longer. I guess I don't need response as much as I needed to keep the throttle open in the first place? I don't know but that's not my question. My question: I guess it's normal to have tension on that gov. arm at all times? The reason I ask is, I'm worried that if I've put on excessive tension with my shortened spring, could that cause premature wear on the flyweight actuating mechanism inside the engine? I mean, somethings gotta be riding on something inside, and even in an oil bath, I worry that it'll wear out faster now. IOW, these springs hold the throttle open harder now, by pulling up on the gov. arm harder now. The max RPM is ltd. by where I've got the nuts set on the vert. throttle linkage on the side of the engine (those two little hex head stop nuts control max and min rpm, I guess.) It seems to run fine now. When it does lug down due to heavy grass, it comes back up relatively quickly, i.e., normally, whereas before it would stay lugged down unless I manually assisted the throttle to open, or the load completely disappeared. Which makes me think the orginal springs were weak. Another Question: On the pivoting bracket on the side of the engine that holds the upper ends of the springs, the one that is above the gov. arm, and is actuated by the throttle cable, there is an eye on the end toward the rear of the tractor, that looks just like it should have a spring hooked through it, as does the forward end of the tractor. Yet this eye moves TOWARD the gov. arm as the throttle is opened, i.e., it moves toward the ground. I have no spring in this eye now. It would seem it is there to assist in the throttle opening. If I were to put a spring there, that would seem to make the gov. more sensitive, as Rod was saying. Does a spring belong there? Anyhow...the increased power is a hoot. Peter

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HubbardRA
Peter, Answer to your first question: There is always force on the govenor if it is not at idle, and even then it is pulling against the idle screw. At more throttle, the force should be in relation to the speed at which the engine is running, since that is what produces the retarding force of the govenor. The spring should be irrelevant to the speed. It takes a specific force to pull the governor open to a specific speed. You just have to stretch a soft spring farther to produce this force, and since it is streched farther, it doesn't go away as quick. Actually the spring is not extremely critical. We had to run double springs on our pulling tractor by the rules. Didn't hurt its response. Second question: I can't exactly visualize what you are describing, since I have three Kohler engines, a Tecumseh, and only one B/S which is not an original Simplicity and the linkages are different. The throttle on this one comes to the carb from the grille side. I think you may be talking about the holes for the small light spring that is used on some engines to remove the slop from the linkage pivots. This keeps the throttle from moving from the vibration. All engines didn't have this spring. My philosophy is "If it works, don't fix it". I've messed up lots of things trying to make them better. Also the factory is very seldom perfect, Use your own judgement. As you may have guessed, I am not a Simplicity historian. I do, however fix and build my own machines. The stiffness of your governor spring will not change the wear on the governor, since the force is the same at a given rpm regardless of the spring that is pulling it there. It doesn't matter if it is a soft spring stretched a lot or a stiff spring stretched a little - same force. Rod H.

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Kent
Peter, Here's where the governor springs are supposed to be located: Here's the adjustment procedure: http://simpletractors.com/operation/243431/page_5.htm Kent The foot-draggin' Clubhouse Custodian...

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BigSix
Rod: Thank you so much for answering these questions. It all makes a lot more sense to me. I now understand more about you last explanation, e.g., the part about how "You just have to stretch a soft spring farther to produce this force, and since it is streched farther, it doesn't go away as quick." I am glad I don't need to be so concerned about the spring tension, either. Do you teach? I feel like I'm fairly intelligent, yet simple statements like this--"It doesn't matter if it is a soft spring stretched a lot or a stiff spring stretched a little - same force..."--really make the mental lights come on. You have a gift (in addition to patience--LoL!). If you look at the excellent graphic Kent linked to, and enlarge the three little pics by clicking on them, you will see what I failed to describe adequately. The "eye" I was asking about is located at the other end (not depicted) of the pivot bracket above the governor, to which the two gov. springs, (illustrated) are hooked. Were someone to hook a spring from there, down to the gov. actuating arm, it would almost set up an "overcenter" type of action, but the tension would decrease as the gov. was "opened" toward the higher RPM position. Apparently nothing goes there, but your explanation re: sucking up linkage slop, in some applications, makes sense to me. Kent: Thank you very much for pasting that enlarged graphic in and the link. I printed it, including the enlarged three-view graphic (it's cool that that will enlarge when clicked--didn't expect it to). This was very helpful. Thank you both. Peter

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HubbardRA
Peter, I am not a teacher. I am a mechanical engineer, who develops weapons for the U. S. Navy. As you might guess, I had to learn to teach so that I could communicate with Naval Officers, and civilians in the D. C. bureaucracy. Most of them are technically incompetent, but they control the project funding. Rod H.

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