Jump to content

Unofficial Home of Old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors

Sign in to follow this  
tractors101

New Simp. Powermax engine conversion

Recommended Posts

tractors101
Hello everyone! Well its been a while since I've posted here but I've been watching the site and trying to keep up to date with whats been going on. Well I finally picked up a powermax (4040) today! One of my main reasons for picking one up was to try to put one of my ideas to work. When I heard about the Honda conversion kit I got to thinking about a different engine to put in, but since I didn't have one of these tractors I couldn't try. Anyways, I'm going to be putting a 3cyl. 16hp. diesel into my tractor and I'm looking at the possibility of putting together and selling diesel conversion kits for these tractors. Since I've had about a year to think it all over, I've got most of the bugs worked out, I just need to do it now! My question though is, is there any interest in putting a diesel engine in these machines? If the kit is wanted it would end up costing about $1500 plus shipping per kit and would include a used excellent running engine (with guarantee), a new radiator and all the brackets and parts to make it mount up and work. I'm going to try to get it together in a way that it would take at most a day to get the diesel in and running and make it a very easy to install kit. Now the catch is that currently I'm in the middle of two tractor restorations that are going to keep me busy until about mid-January, and then after that I need to switch my tractor over to diesel just to make sure that the idea will work fine with no problems. So my guess is that by the end of February I could start making the kits. If there is interest in this idea then I would like to know, if not then thats ok! If anyone has any questions or comments then please feel free to e-mail me if you would like to... I'll be checking up on this post frequently to answer any questions or comments that will be posted in response to this. By the way, I hope that no one thinks that I am trying to downplay the Honda conversion... if you are wanting to put a different gas engine into a powermax then I would go with tht Honda. But I'm working on this kit for people like me who like diesels since it seems like no one else has tried this yet. Anyways, sorry for this long post, thank you all for your time, I look forward to any responses. Have a great weekend everyone! Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gretsch
Welcome Mark, If you can pull it off, I think it will be a very welcome alternative for many people on here. I for one wouldn't spend that much money on a powermax replacement motor unless is was a diesel. Good luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thedaddycat
Having just gone through the tranny on the 2012, and having the parts from the 3310 V, I can tell you there is a size difference between the gear sets. If I recall correctly it was the second intermediate pinion and the third intermediate gear. I only noticed that one because I was looking at all the different keys and held the gears up to each other. After having looked at them so much it's a little hard to recall what I had in hand at the time. I can't tell you how much difference it would make or if other sets could be changed to get what you needed for a gearing change. Just a thought........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PatRarick
Don't see that this would be a problem. None of the gasoline engines used in the Sovriegn, Sunstar, or Powermax tractors are equipped with power shafts on both ends of the engine. The transmission drive setup on these are all add-ons. Pat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tractors101
MPH: I thought about the engine speed difference problem and as of now I have most of it worked out, the only thing I'm still trying to figure out is how to keep the rear PTO spinning at the same speed. Les: The diesel engine that I'm using does has shafts coming out of both sides so that isn't much of a problem, but I will be changing the front PTO to a different clutch. I took another look at all of it this morning just to take measurements and double check it all to make sure that it will work... I will admit that it will be a tight squeeze but I am convinced that it will work! But of course the real test will come when I actually try:). Thanks to everyone who commented so far, I appreciate the interest. Have a great day! Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Les
I am a little confused, EVERY Soveriegn and Powermax(cant reall looking at a SunStar that close) takes the transmission drive off of the Mag side of the engine, then leaving the PTO shaft out the front. So I guess I was wrong, you just need an adaptor to take power off the mag side into the trans. How big of a problem is that? Plus if you are using a water cooled diesel, you are going to end up with the battery inbetween the exhaust manifold and the radiator. I'm no expert but I believe that could have an adverse effect on battery life. Where could you go with the battery? Under the seat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tractors101
Les: The battery is going to end up staying where it is and actually the radiator is going to be behind the battery so the battery will not be getting hot. I'm not sure what battery everyone uses in these tractors but I'm going to have to change it to a slimmer battery just to get an extra inch to fit the radiator in. Thanks for asking! Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Les
Again, I aint no expert, but it seems like there is barely enough room for the Honda motor and the battery in there. Unless that diesel is a bunch shorter than the Honda you will have a radiator within one inch of the battery. Better use a REAL good heat shield! Plus, I know that I can barely spell "Injinear" but doesn't a radiator need something called "air movement" in order to work? My knowledge of thermodynamics is cetainly limited, but it seems to me that if you can squeeze a radiator and a fan into that space, what you will do is then concentrate the heat output of the engine right on the battery. Battery overheating is already a problem with the air-cooled Onan engine. A diesel does run cooler than a gas motor but not that much. You need to think about re-locating the battery. Sam suggested maybe building a box around the seat area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tractors101
Les: Yes the radiator will be within 1" of the battery but it will still work fine. The radiator will have a electric cooling fan with shroud mounted on it so air movement won't be a problem either. Like I said before it will be a tight squeeze but it will work. Thanks for asking! Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Les
I'm trying to be nice, but you are possibly creating an extremely dangerous situation. I would strongly urge you to talk to a battery manufacturer or someone who is very knowlegable about batteries. If you do get that radiator in there blowing hot air on that battery, not only will your battery life be like, a day, but you could get that battery hot enough that it COULD EXPLODE! Believe me, you do not want to experience hot Sulfuric Acid! It can BLIND YOU!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tractors101
Les: Thank you for your concern over the battery location issue, if the radiator was blowing hot air onto the battery then yes I could see the problem but I'm not sure if you understand how I'm planning on setting up the radiator. If your standing in front of the tractor and looking at it (lets just say that there was no hood on it) then the first thing that you would see would be the battery and then the radiator would be behind it. So actually (if anything) the fan that would be sucking the air into the radiator would also be sucking outside air over the battery and then into the radiator so it may even have some type of a cooling effect on the battery. Believe me, the last thing I want to try to do is blow up batteries:). Having the battery in front of the radiator will not affect the air flow either. Thanks again! Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CleanBee
Arent those 3 cylinder diesels inline? Looking at the Honda picture above, Battery, Radiator, Front Clutch, three cylinders, then trans cooler, I don't see how there will be enough room for it all. One other thing I thought of, will the engine produce enough air flow itself to cool the trans fluid. The deisel is a water cooled engine not an air cooled one like the originals. A fan in front of the radiator will only cool the radiator itself not the engine. Might want to test air flow through the diesel. Also, Les does have a good point about the heat and battery issue. I would be concerned about warping the internal plates in the battery myself. Mostly if your selling these to others. The exhaust on the original Onans is over 8 inches away from the battery and it produces enough radiant heat to melt the batteries unless they have a sheild. The Onans have air flow between the battery and exhaust also. Since the radiator is going to be running at nearly the same temperature as the exhaust, this might be trouble. Your solution is that incoming air will redirect the radiant heat away from the battery, how will you make this possible with only an inch between the two? That will take one heck of a fan and shrouding. Also, dont think that radiant heat or the incoming air flow between these two will be linear, it won't. Chances are good it will be turbulent and pockets may still reach too high of temperatures. Hope this helps you some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thedaddycat
So make a 6" front end extension with the kit....... lol Don't take that seriously. While I might try something like that on my own I would never sell it to anyone. I made up side plates that bridge the frame, BGB, and trany. While all are free to attempt the same from what I've shown of my endeavor, they assume all the risk in trying it on their own. After having done it, if I ever did it again I'd just use locking tabs on the ten BGB bolts. After all, if they never loosen there's no wiggle to cause problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UCD
Dan
quote:
Originally posted by CleanBee
Since the radiator is going to be running at nearly the same temperature as the exhaust, this might be trouble.
I don't know much but the last time I knew radiator temperature ran between 160 degrees and 200 degrees depending in thermostat. (new cars run between 220 and 230)Exhaust temperature runs around 600 degrees. Batteries in cars live in a lot more harsh environment then in an open sided tractor. Under hood tempters in a car can run over 250 degrees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SmilinSam
There will have to be some sort of fan pulling air through the transmission oil cooler, no way around it. Either a second fan ducted around the original cooler or a independant fan forced cooler up front (next to the radiator)- in which case the battery will have to be moved. No way around it. My observation anyhow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gretsch
This could actually solve other problems. Add an automotive type transmission cooler in-line with the radiator and just remove the original oil-cooler. This should allow more room for the engine to be set in right......... I hope you do try this engine exchange and best of luck to you. Nothing better ever comes along unless someone is willing to use their know-how or ingenuity to test the unknown. A powermax with a diesel engine would be the best of both "tractor" worlds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tractors101
I want to thank everyone for their input about this project... the only way to find out if it will really work is to try it! So around the end of January to the end of February be sure to be watching for posts and pictures concerning the finished product. I'm looking forward to getting it finished and I'm sure that there are some other people also who can't wait to see it finished:). Anyways, thanks again! Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CleanBee
UDC, Thanks for correcting my error about the temperatures. My brain has been known to fart at 3-4 in the morning. A Snap-on guy demonstrated a radiant temp gauge when they first came out on an automobile engine, I recall being amazed at the temperature variations throughout the block, radiator, and exhaust. Not very useful item for me, but sure was expensive back then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UCD
Dan You can buy a digital temperture probe now for around $40 to $60. The new ones you only have to point it at the part you want the temp. of. They can be a handy item to have working on any piece of equip. Saves alot of burnt fingers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PatRarick
I would think that a battery relocation, such as Sam suggested, would allow more room for the radiator plus an oil cooler in front of the radiator. http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10984 Pat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×