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Hacking


Dutch

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Gentlemen, I would like to pose a question! Today I got a rusted 410 shuttle without an engine, a T13 shuttle chassis without BGB, a 710 hood, and most of a 10 Hp B/S. If I assemble the necessary parts from these tractors into basically what looks to be a 710 shuttle, do any of you consider this hacking? It definitely is not original since the parts are from three tractors and the serial numbers will not match.
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Recycling, Yankee Engineering maybe. Hacking no. You're taking good useful stuff others would toss and making a good tractor from it. How many of us have replaced a BGB or tranny with one from another machine rather than spend for new parts? I have a differential with about $200 in parts from the dealer, ended up replacing the whole tranny, differential, axle and all with a complete tranny I got for $25. Hacking? No.
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Rod, I personally don't consider this a hack job, though it's not a true restoration, and it is two tractors intentionally put together, with a few small parts from a 3rd, plus who knows where else... To me, I resurrected it from the used parts bin or scrap heap.... My 2 cents! [img]http://simpletractors.com/images/2_into_1/all_done_small.jpg[/img] http://simpletractors.com/do_it/2_into_1.htm
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Yes Kent, Saving old iron is what this is all about. 2 years ago, I gave away a 66 landlord frame with complete sheet metal to a member in Cape Cod. No tranny, BGB, engine, or tires, but he was thrilled. And I was glad that I could give it to someone that could do something with it, rather than dump it as iron scrap, or worse, let it rust out in my yard as I lacked the space to deal with it. So maybe some old iron is once again revived. And the sense I got from the recepient is that he'll do it right, and not resort to short cuts. Hacking is taking the value from things that were built right from the beginning. Hackers: Kmart and Sears have plenty of MTDs to choose from..........melt all the plastic you like!
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I do not feel that building a tractor from parts is "hacking". What I don't understand, is the need to keep the serial numbers correct. Since Simplicity serial numbers do not denote a particular year, what would be the problem in installing a grain auger engine of any year that correlates with the year(s) of tractor production? What else is serial numbered, that would matter or show? Unless you are changing something that would alter the machine to where the original parts list could not get you the right parts, how could you defraud anyone by selling them such a tractor as "original"? Am I missing something? Pat
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Pat, I'll start this by saying right off that this is just my opinion. If you replace anything at all with non-OEM parts then what you have is no longer original. Put different tires(size, tread pattern) on, no longer original. My 1967 2012, had I opted to use a different engine from let's say 1972(even if it were the same 12 HP Briggs), no longer original. My 3310 that had been short bockled? No longer original(and that's before I modified it). In fact, I'm thinking long and hard about restoring the points and coil ignition on the 2012 for just that reason, it didn't have the Magnetron to start with. One of the biggies with a true and complete restoration is that EVERYTHING must be factory stock. I have a bunch of bolts I'm saving that have the "Rockford" name on the bolt heads. These are the original bolts, at least from my 3310 and a few other Simplicity tractors I have. Use different bolts, even though they are the same size.....No longer original!!! Now that may be getting down to the "picking fly specks out of pepper" stage, but if you want to have it truly "Original" then that's how it's got to be. I work with a guy who has a '67 Chevy Impala. He told me that at shows if you are going to enter the "Stock" class then the firewall paint had better have some runs and streaks in it. That's the way it came from the factory, that's the way it had better be if you want to win your class. I will be the first to admit that the 2012 will not make that level of restoration "Perfection". I have used non-OEM(Rockford) bolts and washers in places. In fact, I don't even know if you can still get those bolts any more. At anything less than "Show" levels, that doesn't matter though.
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quote:
Saving old iron is what this is all about.
Well said, Terry! Hacking is a word, and we are basically arguing semantics. I think, what we should be about, is start with Terry's premise, and then do the best you can. I'm glad there are guys like Daddycat, that really like to get technical, and I'm glad there are guys, like Pat, that want to take a whole bunch of parts from different machines and make a good one out of them, and I even like seeing some of those strange looking mods.....JMHO
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Kirk, I understand what you are saying, but my question comes from the fact that Simplicity serial numbers mean very little. With a car, the serial numbers have a meaning and serial numbered parts can be traced. Whose to know if the front axle on a B-110 is not from a B-210? If the engine on a Simplicity 2110 is not from an Allis B-110? The BGB on a Big Ten is not from an early B-10? Would it really matter, since there is no way to trace? Let me make it clear that I am not talking about trying to defraud anyone, but trying to find out what difference it would make? No one could ever tell, unless the original owner kept a record of the tractor, engine, starter-generator serial numbers. Yes, replacing the engine in a 1967 tractor with a 1972 engine would make a difference, but what about replacing it with another 1967 engine? I hope I am making myself clear. I guess what I am basically saying, and what I am thinking, is that with a Simplicity, you have to take the seller's word that it is all original because there is no possible way to tell otherwise. Does someone's word make the tractor worth more for the purpose of restoration? Do I have everyone totally confused yet? Pat
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Pat, are you saying, that without stamped components it can't be documented. So, if it can not be proven, does strict adherence matter?
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If I may read between the lines, it looks like most of you are saying that well made changes are not really hacking. Cutting a jagged hole in a hood with a hacksaw to install an engine or beating something ruthlessly with a hammer to make it fit may be hacking. In my opinion, making well planned, evolutionary changes to the older machines to make them more suited for todays uses is not hacking. If you are a purist and your only interest is collecting, then any change will probably be considered hacking. Hacking is "all in the eye of the beholder."
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Art, that is exactly what I am wondering about. I sometimes have problems getting my point across without rambling. I may be wrong, but without the ability to document, I would think a Big Ten is a Big Ten whether it is factory built, or built by one of us from parts of twenty other Big Tens (or their Simplicity equivilents) of the same vintage. Pat
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Well said Rod! That is what I was getting at in my earlier post. Jagged edges,sloppy welds,unsafe wiring,baling wire mounting of components, these are what I call "hacking". I enjoy seeing "full restoration" tractors, but I adapt my own tractors to make my work easier,quicker, comfortable and more fun. Showroom restorations and hobbyist improvements are both great in my book. I just can't be comfortable with the things I mentioned at the first of this post. Larry
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Pat, I agree with you about replacing components with the same components. A lot of the parts were made by the same factory since the tractors were too. I used what I can only guess is a 1964 frame in the 2012, but it's the same frame as the 1967 only without repair/bracing welds on it. If I were to look up part numbers I'd be willing to bet they're the same too. Such replacements would have no functional effect at all. In fact the only thing I know of that Simplicity serialized was the decal stuck to the seat pan or frame, and it didn't match engine numbers anyhow. Beyond that, many of the older tractors no longer have the decals with the serial numbers on them any more. If I'm not mistaken, the axle tube bearings went from bronze to needle bearings around 1971. Trannys will swap from earlier to later and vice versa. The only way to know for sure which bearings are in it is to pull the seals or split tranny cases. One other clue is that the newer trannys have seals for the shift shaft. Little details that make or break at a show, have no bearing on how well a tractor works, but are a dead giveaway if the wrong one is on the wrong year to be "Original". An in depth familiarity with the little points of detail help to determine how original a tractor is. Even then, if the seller isn't the first owner but was lead to believe what he had was indeed an original tractor he wouldn't really be guilty of lying, just of being ignorant of the facts. As far as taking an engine from another S/A-C of the correct year, sure that's original as long as model and type are correct. One of the reasons I'm hanging on to the 9 HP Briggs with the black over A-C yellow paint is that it's an original engine from an early B-10, as near as I can tell. One of these days it will be needed for a restoration, either by me or someone else. I won't let it go for any reason other than a restoration, mostly because it still has the factory paint and the black comes off easily enough. Sure you can build an early B-10 with many other engines, repower, etc. but only that engine(B&S 9) is the right one for that tractor or its Simplicity counterpart, the first Landlord. I've asked several times for definitive distinctions between the 700 and 725 Simplicity tractors. About the only thing I can come up with is that the 700 is a 7 HP Briggs Model 19 Type 706035 and the 725 is a 7.25 HP Model 19 Type 706047. Even then, when I asked Briggs about it they told me that according to their information, ALL Model 19 engines are 7.25 HP @ 3600 RPM. So where does that leave us? Lots of other suggestions like steering column height over the hood, remote choke, more belt guards/safety features on newer tractors. But I have several manuals and they list virtually ALL the parts as the same ones for both model tractors. I know this can't be true across all years of production because of differences in the tractors I have. Maybe if I had a 1960 parts manual for a 700 I could cross it to the other manuals for both models and find differences, but I'm sure there wouldn't be many. As far as being "Original" or not, if it's the correct OEM part(no matter the source, be it dealer new or junkyard used) then as far as I'm concerned it can be called original. The key being that it has to be the correct part, not one that fits and will work. As and example, I can surely fit the center PTO from a 725 onto my 3310 and it will work just fine, but that in no way makes it original to the 3310(even though it's an original Simplicity part). As far as taking someone's word that it's original making a tractor worth more... I'd have to get a feel for what they know about the machine and look at it myself, but would not be inclined to pay any more for it unless it was really something special and they could point that out as part of the sales pitch for a higher price. That would be a good sign that they knew what they were talking about and knew its value.
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MY TWO CENTS WORTH....I believe in keeping everything on the tractor as original as possible,from the mechanics to the sheetmetal to the decals. I consider my various hobbies(Tonka trucks, Simplicity's and my Impala ss) investments as well. Nothing de-values like modifications to the original product, especially visuals. If someone picks up a unit that is completely trashed and/or butchered tractor and makes a workhorse beater or a puller out of it thats one thing, but to take somthing that is restorable and not make it original is in my opinion a crime. I've seen some tractors on eBay that have broken my heart, the mod's were so bad.
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Tom that is exactly why people like Pat and myself keep original parts in storage and modify salvaged parts. I do not make any modifications I can't reverse, but all my tractors are tools and as such I fit them to handle the job(s) at hand. My nickles worth. Larry
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My original post started this by Dutch (see gas tank removal modification), so I will put my nickels worth in. I am also a purist, but also partical. Even my pulling tractors can be returned to original, everything is bolted on, attached to original holes. I have kept the original hydro transaxles to put back when we are done pulling. When partical I have kept all components that came with the tractor>>with the tractor, but I have also made 1 good tractor out of 3 junk tractors. I also believe in some modifications for safety and maintenance, but not necessarily for convenience. Remember many time the way an item is built is not necessarily for strength, or looks but for assembly ease.
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Here are some of my "hack" jobs. This is the grill frame on my B-210 after replacing the cast iron single with a Vanguard V-twin. Notice the oil drain and that the "bubble" for the cast iron oil fill has been removed.

These two are the alterations made for oil filter clearance when I repowered my 914 with a Vanguard V-twin.

Not a hack job, but I just didn't like the pan seat on my 3112. Not being able to find a decent frame from the B-110 through B-212 Allis, I made this complete seat using 3/4" square tubing for the armrest frame.

Pat
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Pat, your mods. look good. The cut for the filter looks like a pro-job. The seat came our nice too. What did you use to bend the tubing, it also looks professional? Did you do the seat cushions, too?
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Art, I built the entire seat. The frame was not bent, but cut and welded, ground and finished. The support irons were copied from the seat of my B-210. The armrests, backrest, and seat were cut from 5/8" treated plywood. 3" closed cell foam was used for the seat and backrest, and 1" closed cell foam was used for the armrests. I have an old Singer upholstery and canvas sewing machine that I used to sew the vinyl upholstery. I can do OK on fitting the upholstery, but havent mastered sewing in straight pleats as of yet. The cut for the oil filter was made with a torch, both in the hood and frame. Finished with a 4" grinder and a rotary file, then primed and painted. I am going to repaint the hood this winter, so I didn't paint beyond what was necessary to cover the cutting and shaping. You may also notice on the 914, that there is a piece of iron welded where the hood hinge bolt is. The previous owner ran the tractor for several years with loose hood bolts, which wore out the holes in the frame and hood. I welded 1" square pieces of 1/4" on the outside of the frame and on the inside of the hood. Using 1/4" X 1" flat iron, I welded ears inside the frame so the hood bolts are through a clevis type arrangement with the hood hinge points between. Pat
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Very nice, Pat. I'm going to try my hand at a seat. The main problem I will need to overcome is an inability to sew. When, you do your next one, here's a link to pleated vinyl. [url]http://www.garysupholstery.com/Products/pleated/pleated.html[/url]
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Rod If you assemble what appears to be a 710 out of those spare parts, please send plenty of pictures. ^ While I appreciate the purists who take these machines down to bare metal and rebuild them factory spec from the ground up, my heart lies with the adventurers that manage to get useful work out of a bunch of scrap. The goal is to improve the operation, safety and longevity of these machines. That may mean keeping everything factory spec, or it may mean making heavy mods. If the job is performed crudely, no matter what it is, its a hack job. A restoration can be a hack job it its done wrong. I appreciate daddycat's resto magic. On the other hand, Pat is going to get a lot of work out of that V-twin Briggs. Was the Batmobile a hack job? There obviously is no factory and the car had to be pieced together out of parts during Robin's spare time. Are monster trucks hack jobs? Is a street rod a hack job? Steve
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As stated above, I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" way to approach this subject, as long as it is done judiciously, and done well.... For the true collector, everything should be absolutely original. But, most of the tractors shown and discussed here are working tractors, not show machines. Do people confuse "daily drivers" with show cars? Where do street rods and customs fit in? How many people run radial tires and newer wheels on their 1950s and 1960s classics? How many 6-volt cars have been converted to 12-volt systems? Etc, etc. I agree that in general you should try to keep it to where the machine could be put back in stock condition -- that may increase it's value a few years down the line. But, what is the value received from the modification you've made, as you use it over the same next few years? What is the value of the pleasure you gain from planning and making a modification that improves the usefulness of the machine? I'm quite pleased with the results of putting a Sundstrand hydro and 16HP motor in my B-210 -- yet, both examples might be considered a "hack job" given some of these definitions.... So, I don't own an absolutely stock tractor, nor do I own a "show" tractor. My Big Ten was "rescued" and revived. I do have a B-1 under the barn that I hope to combine with parts off a Model 700 (that I bought for just that purpose) someday, if I have the disposable cash to do so. Would that B-1 have been better off parted out, or left outside to continue rusting away, or "resurrected" with some not-quite original parts? I personally vote for "resurrection" every time.... I've yet to stumble across a tractor in good enough condition for a "true" restoration -- that I could afford at that time. There was an original, low-hours 3012H that I had a chance to buy, but I didn't have $1500 of "disposable cash" to spend on a tractor that I wouldn't make earn its keep.... Ironically, another club member bought the tractor and put it to work. I am glad that there are those out there to restore these tractors to absolute showroom condition, then don't use them. But, I'm just not one of those guys -- to me, they're tools that I toy with -- not toys that I collect, hoping that they'll appreciate and I (or my heirs) can cash in at some future point. To each their own....
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ANOTHER TWO CENTS WORTH:Depends on the condition of the car when purchased if a street rod is a hack job, to me anyway. If the car is toast, you do what you can with it (as most car guys do). If it is a clean original, why cut it up? Down the road it wil be worth more and it would cost less(I am told by several friends in the business)to restore then to cut it up. The same with tractors in my opinion.
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Tom, I agree with cutting up or hacking a clean original machine in good condition.... But, how many people drive their 1957 BelAirs or 1966 Impalas to work every day? Many of the machines shown and discussed here are still working, and working hard.... Kent
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