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dirtsaver

Converting Cable rear lift to solid on 17GTH-L

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dirtsaver
My 17GTH-L (7117) has the cable to the rear lift. I would like to convert it to a solid linkage like my 3012 has so I can have downforce for plows,cultivators, etc. Has anyone tried this or know if parts fron an older model will work on this tractor? The biggest problem I see so far would be clearing the Sunstrand hydro unit. Any thoughts are appreciated!:D Larry

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SmilinSam
I wouldn't recommend it. Every tractor made had "give" somewhere in the linkage. The older machines "give point" was in that the lift lever was free to float back and frth. You could hold onto it and put manual pressure down that way, but still it was not "fixed" in position. The 3300 series used a latching lift lever and solid rod , but the connector on the rear lift let the rod slide back and forth allowing the implement to" float". The newer machine went to a cable lift with the advent of the electric lift so there would be "give" somewhere in the setup. With your machine and a hydraulic lift and solid rod, there would be no "give" anywhere in the setup. First time something hard and immovable is hit you are going to take out the rod, lift shaft or both. Its up to you..

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PatRarick
Sam, it would eliminate the ability to hold the implement in transport position, but doesn't Simplicity carry a cam type washer that you can put on the lift lever to hold the latch up allowing it to float? That's one thing I like about the hydraulic lift on the B series over all other lifts. You can carry, float, or put down pressure on your implement. Pat

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Kent
I agree on your comment about usefulness of the B series hydraulic lift. I slowly "push" my tiller into the ground in my garden to the depth I want, holding the clutch/brake, then put the lift in float position and drive forward slowly. This saves having to go over the same area several times to get it to dig to its maximum depth....

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SmilinSam
quote:
The 3300 series used a latching lift lever and solid rod , but the connector on the rear lift let the rod slide back and forth allowing the implement to" float".
I made a slight error here as Pat made me aware. The above line holds true for the AC 300/400 series as well as thw AC Homelites, which all had the rod sliding through a fitting at the rear lift. As Pat mentioned, the 3300 series DID have a solid rod connecting firmly at the lift shaft and at the rear lift. They achieved the "float" of the implement by the use of the cam type washer attached to the lift handle by the quadrant. Really , there are 2 dangers in running your implememnt in the ground with firm down pressure. One is bending the rod and or lift shaft on the tractor, and the other applies to roto tilling. If your tiller is unable to "float" and you hit a brick or something of that nature, instead of the tiller hopping over it its going to be forced to chew right on through it possibly wreaking havoc on the chains and gears inside. Just things to think about.....

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thedaddycat
The electric lift was available on the 3300 series, I have one on my 3310. The 3300s were also the last to have front and rear counterbalanced from the factory. Mine uses a rod with the interlocked loops, which allows the rear end to float upwards. I used a section of 1/2" perforated plate to allow me to adjust the position of the rear lift by changing the hole the rod is placed in. You could get downpressure by changing this to a solid rod. If you do that, it might be a good idea to make the lift rod attach by using something like the sliding fitting that the clutch/brake rod uses. Put heavy springs on both sides of the pipe section, and stop collars on the outboard sides of the springs. That way the springs take up the shock load if you hit something solid.

Here's the lift shaft on the 3310. The rear lift linkage is on the left, the electric lift uses the two arms close together, and the thin arm that looks like it's pointing down is for attaching the mower deck lift chain. I have a few ideas on how to get downpressure on the mid-mounted attachments, specifically the toothed grader blades I got from Dutch. I will likely use a large spring to absorb the shock load, but putting half a ton of force on the blade should make it cut right in.

I have a solid rod for the front lift, and could get the front wheels off the ground before I added the front wheel weights and filled the tires with fluid. Since I use a HD 46" blade with trip springs, the blade tilts under shock load.

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Stoneheartfarm
Kent, You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the rear lift components on your B would you? I'm still trying to get mine figured out, there's a lot of stuff flat out missing. The Large Frame manual I downloaded informs me rear lift is eplained in Chapter 15. :) Unfortunately, the manual only appears to go to Chapter 14. 8:( Steve

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Kent
Steve, Here's a view of the rear lift rod and rear lift group on the Big Ten: http://www.simpletractors.com/images/2_into_1/high-low.jpg And here's an outside view and one inside of the hydraulic lift -- I don't have any more good "internal shot" though it looks just like the 2012 that Kirk (thedaddycat) posted: http://www.simpletractors.com/images/2_into_1/engine.jpg http://www.simpletractors.com/images/2_into_1/hydraulic_lift.jpg Here's a couple shots of the one on my HB-216 (i.e. B-210 hybrid): http://www.simpletractors.com/images/var_hydro/full_tunnel_top.jpg http://www.simpletractors.com/images/var_hydro/full_tunnel.jpg There's more views of it in the the story of the conversion at this link: http://www.simpletractors.com/do_it/variable_to_hydro.htm

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Kent
The B-series uses a double-acting hydraulic cylinder with a "float position" at the end of the control quadrant in each direction. You can provide "down pressure" in each direction (what lifts the front provides downpressure on the rear, and vice versa) while the float is provided by (I would assume) bypass valves in the control valve(s), not in the cylinder. There's a "tab" at each end of the control quadrant to lock it into the appropriate float position. [img]http://www.simpletractors.com/images/hydraulics/figure6.jpg[/img] I can lift the back wheels of the tractor off the ground with the tiller on it, or lift the front wheels with the dozer blade on the front.... I just remembered -- here's the instructions for "field installation" of the hydraulic lift kit, where the above picture came from: http://www.simpletractors.com/operation/hydraulics/hydraulic_lift.htm

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BLT
Kent 3415 shows a cable in my parts book. Also Sam M/N 990351 show both lift arangements with manual and power lift but isn't specific on what to use where. I have 3 spare lift rods as I get antsy with tiller and for it down alot. I also put a milk crate under tiller and then force it down to get back wheels off the ground.

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PatRarick
Sam, my HB-212 with FACTORY installed hydraulic came with the link type lift rod that Kirk pictured above. Since the hydraulic lift has the float position, I replaced it with a solid lift rod. I sometimes want down pressure on my cultivator. Always use float with the tiller though. Pat

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dirtsaver
Thanks guys! Maybe I should look into converting my 3012 to hydraulics similar to Kent's HB-216 if I can find all the parts. Or maybe say to heck with it and spend my time and money on another project. UNLESS......Kent would you consider selling the HB??? Just joking Kent! Larry

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thedaddycat
Sam, I have two theories about the interlocking loops on the rear lift rod. One is that it was to provide the "give" you mentioned. The other is that the variable drive is about 4" longer, but it seems to me it would be easier to just make longer rods for the variable drive tractors. I think the first is the more likely of the two, the electric lift has no "float" to it. Once it is in position, it stays there. Judging by the looks of it when I took it apart, the hydraulic lift float is in the valving and I'm fairly sure it just recycles the pump output back to the tank. This link is to my pics of the hydro lift taken apart. http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11840

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PatRarick
Kirk, I also believe that the loops were only to provide the "give". To replace the looped rod on my HB-212, I exchanged the rods with a lever lift B-210. It was an exact fit. I believe that beginning with the B-200/3200 series, the frame plates were made so the tractors were all the same length, regardless of whether it was hydro, vari-drive, or straight three speed (Simplicity only). Pat

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Stoneheartfarm
So, the key is the valve? With the proper valve and a straight lift rod, a double acting hydraulic cylinder will provided float? How necessary is the original pump? Would a small pump from something like a wood splitter do? Or, a small power steering pump? I'm just wondering if it might be more cost effective to use common aftermarket parts rather than trying to find original (salvage) parts. Steve

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thedaddycat
I don't think you'd need that big a pump for just the lift ram, it's only 1.25" bore by maybe a 6" stroke. Here's what the stock pump looks like on the inside, not very big at all...... The valve stem is below the spacer plate, on the right. It is spring loaded to return to the center(hold) position, while the handle has an arm to hold it in the float position.

If you look close, you can see the tabs that hold the handle on the rusted plates that form an arc at the top of the quadrant.

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Stoneheartfarm
Would the stock pump handle a Johnny bucket without trouble? I'm just thinking that it would probably be a lot easier (and cheaper) to order a small pump like that from a log splitter out of Northern than to hunt around for an original pump. (ot too many tractor graveyards around here, although I do know of a couple.)With an aftermarket pump and cylinder, I'd still have to turn up a stock valve. Steve

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Kent
Steve, Are you talking about the stock pump on your B-210? If so, here's a story of my using my B-210 with stock hydraulic lift and a Johnny Bucket. Note that I was NOT using a counterweight on it at the time to gain additional lift capability. The rear weight I was using at that time was hanging there just for additional traction -- it didn't connect to the lift rod at all. I later hooked it up to the top hitch tube so it would function like a true counterweight, and finally replaced it with a factory counterweight and donuts (2 plus an additional 20 or 25 lb barbell weight) for one tractor and the Johnny Box for the other. Using either of these "true counterweight" methods allows me to pick up approximately 250lb or so in the Johnny Bucket. For example, it easily will pick up a full bucket of clean 2" stone. But, if that is "dirty stone" full of dirt between the stones, I think it's reaching its limits, since it raises it slowly.... [url="http://simpletractors.com/operation/johnny_bucket_jr_.htm"]Johnny Bucket Jr review [/url] [img]http://simpletractors.com/images/bucket/top_view_small.jpg[/img] BTW, just for comparison to aftermarket pumps, the specs on the factory pump are 2 GPM, 900 - 1000 psi max, with a one quart reservoir... Here's the flyer for it: http://simpletractors.com/attachments/hydraulic_lift.htm

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PatRarick
Kent, I'm not sure that the hydraulic pump ever reaches it's limit. I believe the pressure relief valve is what is letting you down with a heavy load. I'm sure you could lift more by putting a heavier spring in the relief valve, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you have experience in hydraulics and know the limits of the associated parts. You could wind up blowing the cylinder seals, bending the cylinder shaft or breaking something else. I'm positive that the pump itself would handle enough to kill the motor long before the pump would reach it's limit. Pat

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Kent
Pat, I agree with the relief valve "letting me down." I'd love to be able to replace the existing spring (now 30+ years old) with a new original spec or slightly stronger one.... I'm seriously considering doing a seal R&R, like Kirk, while I have mine torn apart right now....

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thedaddycat
Kent, I have a line on a place to size the last two O rings that go on either side of the spacer plate(pump body and tank head) and confirm the size of the cap seal O rings. I stopped today, but the ones I got seem just a hair off. I'll stop by tomorrow afternoon on the way in to work and confirm the info., bringing the parts with me to fit check them. If it all proves out I'll post the details and if you don't mind, could you then update the table? BTW, the O ring sizes are industry standard but make sure you're dealing with someone who knows that you're refering to that and not a brand-name firm's part number. I went to Bearing Distributors, the site is www.bdi-usa.com.

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