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Hesitant Hydro


BDSchmidt

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I would like to know what I might want to check in regards to a problem I am having with my 7119. I start it up, let it warm up and then move the hydro lever forward...the majority of time it takes right off with forward motion, good torque, etc, but occasionally forward movement is very slow, and hestitant, even with full forward placement of the lever. Often it will "catch" after a few seconds and I'll seem to have normal forward movement. The same thing will happen in reverse also. It did this this summer as well so I don't think it is temperature related. The fluid is fresh and to the full level and a new filter is in place as well. THe belt from the BGB to the hydro seems like it is adjusted correctly. Is there anything else I should be checking/doing before taking it in to the shop? Brian:D
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Brian, it may have air in the system. Are you following the book on how to check fluid with the fill tube in the exact location and the vent pin up? If not I am sure someone else here will post the picture and description.
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Brian, I would check the drive belt idler bracket. These get sticky on the pivot and sometimes do no allow the belt to tighten completely. Pat
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Maynard, I have to disagree with you on this one. I had a Ford Aerostar and the owners manual on it stated that Mercon was required for the transmission, but Type F was to be used in the power steering. It stated specifically that Mercon should not be used. No reason was given. I think some of the friction modifiers used with some of the newer non-asbestos clutch surfaces may affect the compressibility of the fluid. I know type F(old Fords) is a good hydraulic fluid, but I am not sure about Dextron/Mercon(Chevy-Ford) or ATF(for Chrysler trannys). Type F is still available, because I use in all of my power steering units, even the GMs. One quart of Type F cost about the same a little bottle of steering fluid, but contains about three times as much fluid. I use Simplicity hydro fluid in my AC 716H. By the way, I have the same slow starting problem sometimes. It seems to be random, and I haven't figured out the problem either. Once the tractor starts working, there is no problems for the rest of the day. Guess I'll find what is wrong when it breaks, cause it has me buffaloed too. Got an extra shuttle tranny now, so if the hydro gives me too many problems, the "H" may change to an "S".
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Forgot to mention that I once encountered the problem of the belt being worn to less than 3/8" wide and was glazed. Even though it was tight, it would slip when the transmission was cold or under heavy pulling. Pat
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Rod You can use what ever you want. I was in the Automotive business for 25 years and have read loads of tech manuals and spec sheets. so do as you feel best, it's your equipment. Dexron mircon is the replacement ATF fluid for dexron, dexron I, Dexron II. and type F transmission fluid. We could not get type F as none of the parts stores carried it any more.
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powerking_one
Uhm, uhm ,Maynard: Sounds like those 25 years has left a stuck bit somewhere in the 'ol cranial computer. I believe you mean -DEXRON-. From Webster's unabridged dictionary: closest word to DEXTRON is DEXTRONIC: def=pertaining to dextrose; obtained from dextrose (a sugary sirupy liquid from glucose, starch, or dextrine). Tom(PK)
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DEXRON III® MERCON® Quality Base Oils The base oils used in DEXRON® III - MERCON® have gone through several refining steps. First of all, there is the solvent extraction process that removes undesirable characteristics from the fluid. This will prevent sludge, gum, and varnish under heated conditions. The base stock then goes through the hydro-treating process which improves the oil's resistance to oxidation, as well as improving the oil's response to the superior quality additives used by Texas Refinery Corp. Finally the oils go through a dewaxing process making them suitable for cold temperatures. Because of their excellent resistance to oxidation and the beefed up additive package, extended drain intervals are often realized. DEXRON III® MERCON® Superior Quality Additives Texas Refinery Corp.'s DEXRON® III - MERCON® is additive treated with anti-wear, anti-leak, anti-foam, as well as being inhibited against rust, corrosion, and oxidation. It also contains a sheer stable viscosity index improver, a detergent dispersant package, and a pour depressant. In addition, the formula contains special friction modifiers. All of these superior quality additives work together to provide the finest in protection and service. DEXRON III® MERCON® Long Life DEXRON® III - MERCON® is made with the finest anti-oxidation additives to retard sludge at elevated temperatures. Oxidation quickly kills many transmission fluids but this product provides long life. Texas Refinery Corp.'s DEXRON® III - MERCON® has the ability to resist oxidation at temperatures exceeding 325° F. The product does not contribute to varnish or sludge on critical transmission components such as valve bodies, oil screens, governors or valves. This means the most severe operating conditions still receive desired shift characteristics because the fluid doesn't break down. DEXRON III® MERCON® Protects Seals and Other Parts Three of the top quality additives used in the formulation of DEXRON® III - MERCON® are pour depressants, friction modifiers, and viscosity index improvers. The pour depressants alter the wax (found in all paraffin-based oils) and prevent the crystal wax growth, which could retard cold weather performance. As a result, the product flows at incredibly cold temperatures. The friction modifier has been added for smooth positive shifts and compatibility with clutch-plate materials. Extra care has been taken to ensure compatibility with various automatic transmission components, such as plastic parts and elastomeric seals. The viscosity index improvers used are extremely sheer stable. This, in addition to the highly refined base oils and the other superior additives, make this product top quality. DEXRON III® MERCON® Extra Wide Operating Temperature Range DEXRON® III - MERCON® has a variety of industrial uses. The very low pour point of -60° F. makes this an excellent cold weather hydraulic fluid. Industrial customers use the product year round in hydraulic systems because it handles temperature extremes of heat and cold very well. DEXRON III® MERCON® Versatile In addition to being a very good all-weather hydraulic fluid, DEXRON® III - MERCON® has other uses. Industrial customers have found this product works well as a cold weather gear lubricant for those gear cases not requiring extreme pressure characteristics. In fact, this product has been used to lubricate all types of things in cold weather such as: chains and cables, bearings, compressors, spindles, shafts and journals as well as other general plant lubrication requirements. Texas Refinery Corp.'s DEXRON® III - MERCON® is a multifunctional fluid for automatic and power-shift transmissions as well as industrial and mobile hydraulic systems. It is recommended for use as a fluid in automatic transmissions requiring General Motors DEXRON® III; Allison (C-4 12220390); Ford MERCON®, Ford M2C138CJ, M2C166H; as well as Caterpillar TO-2. It is also recommended for Sperry Vickers M-2950-S, I-286-S Denison HF-O, HF-1, HF-2, and Sunstrand hydraulic pump systems
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Good information Maynard. I was just relating what my owner's manual had stated. The two auto parts stores that I deal with regularly still sell a fluid labeled Type F, along with the Dexron/Mercon and the ATF. Three different labels, may be the same inside. I also had a transmission man tell me that I should not use anything but Type F in the 63 Mercury Comet that I sold last summer. He said the newer fluids would make the clutches go bad. Obviously from your article above, it covers Sunstrand and Vickers Hydros. Your article does not directly mention Type F. Is that the same as M2C138CJ?
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quote:
Originally posted by BDSchmidt
I would like to know what I might want to check in regards to a problem I am having with my 7119.
My hydros are slightly "sluggish" until the fluid gets circulating (one minute more or less), then they operate as they should. I'm not worried.
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Rod I had the same questions as you concerning Ford transmissions. I called a few Tranny experts one of them forgets more everyday then most "newer techs" ever know. I was told that the mircon was ok to use. The type F today is used like a performance fluid. Supposedly it provides quicker more positive shifts but that is the only advantage. I went online checking some bulk oil sellers and didn't find any that had type F available. For what it's worth.
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My hydro on the 912 has always been a bit sluggish, especially when it is cold. As long as it works, I'm not worried! Dave
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Gang, Type F fluid is "stiffer" than Dexron, etc, etc. Not sure why it is stiffer but it is (less internal friction or slightly higher viscosity maybe). The stiffer fluid limits the amount of slip when the clutch packs engage. The older Ford transmissions required Type F to prevent excess slip and hence early failure. This also explains why Type F is a "performance" fluid today that gives quicker shifts. My 2 cents worth,
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Hi, We encounter this problem often. The cause is related to the cushion springs in the rod going from the control "cam" to the control lever. Usually the pivot at the rear of this rod is binding, in addition the Cam roller on the arm on the transmission is dirty and binding. When you push the lever forward, the spring in the cushion compresses pulling on the cam, after a short time the cam comes farther and the spring is relaxed. In severe cases we have added a washer on each end of the stack on the cushion springs. First we take the cam roller off and clean it and make sure the shoulder bolt it turns on is smooth. We clean and relube it and put it back together. then we lube the "cam shafts" on the end. third we lube the pivot on the control rod. This usually fixes the problem. It seems to me the problem shows up on the later tractors than the earlier ones. I have talked to Simplicity about it and they say the specs on the cam roller have not changed. It seems to me that the rollers I have seen in later years have been slightly softer than they were 15 years ago. A harder roller will roll easier on the cam and not cause the cushion spring to stay collapsed. This is a mechanical problem and not in the hydro. I have seen tractors almost pull a wheelie when the cam finally jumps to where it should have gone when the lever was moved. When we service a tractor this lubrication process is part of our normal tractor service. We probably see 15 or 20 tractors a year that need this fixed. The first year the 700 ACs came out they were terrible, they would pull wheelies. The hydros were sooo jerky. Within a few months the cam ramp was revised and most if not all of the orginal cams were replaced with the current cam. My 2 cents worth and its free, value accordingly. Good luck, Al Eden
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Al, I think you hit it on the head with my problem. I was out in the garage looking things over and just moving the lever back and forth, ( with the engine off) and found that when I moved the lever full forward, there would be some sticking in the vicinity of the small spring that is on the rod that pulls the cam mechansim. After the lever was all the way forward, the cam would slowly catch up. I had sprayed the pivot point with some silicone spray and it loosened right up and now there is no delay in the movement of the cam in relationship to the movement of the lever. I didn't get a chance to start it up and drive it around but I'll do that tomorrow and see how things go. While evaluating this on my 7119 and comparing to my 7117 I noticed that the idler pulley that tensions the belt to the hydro is located in a different hole on the 7119 , ( the top most hole) whereas on the 7117, it is located on the middle of the three holes. Which is correct ? . By the way Al, your ignition kit for my 7119 with the Kohler Magnum 20 has worked wonderfully...thanks again for the help over the phone you provided! Brian
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